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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

636 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 27/09/2018 06:45

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

OP posts:
Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 17:17

Yes a trans man could give birth as a woman they are biologically a woman. A trans woman could not bring biologically a man. I’m not sure I follow.

I believe maternity and paternity leave should be equal. With men and women being offered comparable time. I may accept a choice to to share a sum of time between the couple but Decided between the couple but I would make that a generous allowance. in the case of a single trans man mother they should be entitled to the equivalent if maternity leave.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 17:17

This has nothing to do with girl guides!

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 17:18

I haven’t said that biological women shouldn’t have maternity leave!

BeyondAdultHumanFemale · 27/09/2018 17:20

Beyond: personally as I have said I woukdn’t exclude a trans boy who is already a guide and I suspect no guide troop would in reality.

But the entire premise of this thread is that this is exactly what they have said themselves they will do?

blueskiesandforests · 27/09/2018 17:22

Swiss at 16:55 you said no trans man would expect to give birth as a woman. I thought you were making a gender identity point about men feeling male and that not encompassing pregnancy?

Clearly some trans men are comfortable with using their female reproductive systems. My point was this precludes accepting them as men and treating them as men because some things cannot be done by any man, ever.

NobodyToVoteForNow · 27/09/2018 17:24

I will get flamed for saying this but I don't think maternity and paternity leave should be equal until men, as a sex class, sort their fucking shit out.

blueskiesandforests · 27/09/2018 17:25

You have said women should get exactly the same parental leave as men and suck up the fact that they have the extra burden of physics recovery. That is regressive. More paternity leave is great, but not at the expense of additional protected time to recover physically which is specifically for the parent who has gestated and birthed.

blueskiesandforests · 27/09/2018 17:25

Physical not physics

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 17:29

Sorry. I typo. Trans men are biologically women getting my directions mixed up. No a trans woman hasn’t got the right bits.

Typing quickly on a phone while working.

I do agree paternity and maternity leave should be equal.

But yes trans women giving birth is absurd.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 17:32

But again nothing to do with guides.

LittlePearl · 27/09/2018 17:39

NotMyNameButHereForever - excellent post, thank you.

Earlier on the thread someone - Bertrand? - said a trans person just getting on with their life would impact another person very little except for something like GG or prison.

I think trans ideology, however, is already having a MASSIVE effect in social terms:

I have concerns about natal women who would prefer not to receive intimate care from a trans-woman, but are denied this legitimate request.

I would feel uncomfortable about sharing a hospital ward with a male-bodied person - not because I see them necessarily as a threat but for reasons of privacy and dignity.

And most terrifyingly, for me, having language hijacked, terms re-defined (i.e. woman, FFS) the silencing and the hysterical defence of the Emperor's New Clothes, takes us into Handmaid's Tale and 1984 territory. It's deeply sinister, and the fact that so many people seem a bit oblivious to this really troubles me.

Mamaryllis · 27/09/2018 17:51

I run a unit for teens Swiss. We discuss that gender is utter bollocks and that each individual should be free to dress, act, and engage in whatever activities they wish. We discuss the rampant gendered ideologies that discriminate against women and girls, and we uphold bodily autonomy and create the unit as a safe space. I cannot for one minute envisage how I would a male in a discussion about how to deal with feminine hygiene at camp, (that’s a very sanitized phrase - we discuss blood and used sanitary towels, and hygiene in an environment without flush toilets etc) and we discuss how girls are routinely excluded from education and public life in various parts of the world (we use the millennium development goals to do so). We discuss how males oppress females. We discuss rates if maternal death, contraception, and all other matters pertaining to being female.

I have literally no idea why there is an attempt to centre male-bodied people in an organization specifically set up to break down the barriers that females experience by virtue of their sex.
Sex. Sex. Sex.
Gender is the tool of oppression. By welcoming and centring gender, we are removing the ability of the girl guides to name the very reason that the girl guides exists as a worldwide organization.

Centring gender makes the girl guides a pointless after school activity that cements oppression, rather than fights against it. It renders it utterly pointless.

What is the point of a ‘girls’ group that prioritises the rights of a male member over thousands of female members?

It is completely counter-productive to the entire ethos of guiding.

How do I discuss how utterly dangerous ‘gender’ is as a concept with someone who has decided it is his life’s work?

How do I encourage female members to uphold their own boundaries when the organization itself has forbidden them from doing so?

Accepting male members into guiding will change the face of it forever. It will exclude the vast swathes of girls who currently benefit most, and it will inadvertently render the organization a useful tool of gendered oppression, managing to cement both masculine and feminine stereotypes in one fell swoop. It won’t be long before we are back to the bad old days when the general public assumes that scouts are for the rufty tufty rockclimbers and robotics kids and the guides is for the glitter and baking kids.

The girls who live on mountains will feel less welcome.

Explain to me why gender should be prioritises over biology for a group who are oppressed due to biology. Please.

Because gender means bupkus. Except ‘this is how you are supposed to behave.’

And really, I’m trying to tell my girls that they can decide for themselves how they behave.

It’s fucking depressing having women fighting for female subjugation. Do what the men want, ladies. Be nice. Subjugate yourself at the altar of the mighty penis.

I already have girls confess they flunk maths tests deliberately because the boys patrol what fanciable girls are supposed to be like. This is not a problem that is going to be solved by the girls bending over further. Have some self respect ladies, and fight back.

Issues with toxic masculinity that are triggering boys to want to shelter in female spaces need to be dealt with in masculine spaces by broadening the bandwidth of acceptable masculinity.

We are working bloody hard to teach the girls they can do anything, but we can’t do that while males are present. It prevents openness and shuts down honest discussion.

Get those conversations going in make spaces too.

My priority is not males. It is the girls I choose to lead.

Elephantinacravat · 27/09/2018 17:59

As stated I do think women have had a raw deal and I do think we as women need to continue to fight for our position and equality. I don’t see how a trans woman changes this. I see one more woman in the fight.

Ha, is that right? 'Women' like Karen White?

The vast majority of TRAs and people behind these redefining of words are 'transwomen' and men. Men get to define 'womanhood' and decide what makes a woman. The definition of woman can be changed by men whenever they want. It's the 8th rule of misogyny: men are whatever men say they are, and women are whatever they say they are.

Meanwhile, women are still abused, exploited, oppressed and killed because of their biological femaleness. Men know and have always known the humans of which sex class to oppress regardless of how they 'identify'.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 18:20

Do I as a woman not have a right to define womanhood. Why should you speak for me?

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 18:25

Mama you have given me an essay. Trans girls also need your inspiration. As I have already said use of small groups would work to allow space for discussion.

blueskiesandforests · 27/09/2018 18:25

Mamary I wish someone like you had been my guide leader 30 years ago. My experience of guides was playing Jacob's ladder repeatedly and doung scavenger hunts and singing idiotic songs. Zero interesting, thought provoking conversations about women.

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2018 18:35

Swissgemma-are you still refusing to engage with the idea that this policy will prevent Muslim girls from being allowed to join Guides at all? That there might actually never be a transgirl in guides, but now there will be far fewer Muslim girls?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2018 18:40

Do I as a woman not have a right to define womanhood. Why should you speak for me? You have exactly the same rights as me and any other woman.

The real question is why would you happily walk into a future where those rights have been whittled away by acts such as this?

Sod all the oh it's kids, it is different for adults twaddle. Think it through. In 10 years time when women no longer have sex based rights because sex no longer has a place in defining men and women, what do you think life will be like for girls and women?

What will the real impact be? Think it through - any man can demand any woman moves over for him, for any service, any activity, any issue. No woman can object as she isn't the only kind of woman in town!

So today's male girl guide becomes tomorrows male female care worker, some will become male lady rapists, male lady domestic abusers, some will become male lady barristers, accountants, nurses, and on and on and on.

No service will be able to collate accurate health information, the NHS won't be able to allocate reasonable funds for sex based medical conditions; safeguarding will cease to exist and so very many more sex based services will simply cease to exist.

I can't sleep walk into that. I'd rather be seen as a rude, aggressive bigot than be nice and accept that some men are actually women!

BeyondAdultHumanFemale · 27/09/2018 18:45

"It's just kids" always confuses me. Do they think criminals just pop up at 18, having been kind law-abiding citizens until the clock struck midnight on their 18th birthday? Confused

(Not aimed at anyone here btw, but at someone I saw discussing the issue on TV)

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 18:49

Curious I haven’t called anyone a bigot.

Personally I am uncomfortable throwing rapists and abusers into the mix. Whatever biological sex or gender identity rape and abuse are unacceptable.

I do not think that women can raise up by pushing others down.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 18:52

Beyond I agree. In this case though it is presence of a penis and the sudden self selection. I do think that is a difference between trans children and trans adults.

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 18:53

Bertrand i am still saying I don’t know enough.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2018 18:57

Where did I say you did call anyone a bigot?

And surely you can see the hypocrisy in that last sentence? Women can't raise up by pushing others down but anyone and everyone else can relegate women if the feel like it!

And trans kids go have the same propensity as any other kids - they grow up, they become adults, they have the same likelihood as any other kids to be a nice adult or a nasty one!

So, whilst you might dislike bringing negative behaviours into this, you can't just ignore the fact that they will be there in trans girls just as they are in any other boy!

Swissgemma · 27/09/2018 19:04

Good curious I just wanted to be clear I don’t want to accuse anyone of bigotry or to be interpreted that way. I absolutely agree with free speech even if I don’t agree.

Yes trans children and non trans children can each become nasty or nice... we don’t exclude because of potential. Extend to say blue eyes - blue eyed adults can be bad drivers therefore ban all blue eyed drivers.

For me pushing any group down (including women) is unacceptable.

Mamaryllis · 27/09/2018 19:08

Swiss, my inspiration to ‘trans girls’ would be to broaden the bandwidth of accepted masculinity, to accept that their male biology places limitations on their ability to be female, and to start changing society to accept that men dressed as women are still men. Men can be care workers, enjoy fashion, bake, and wear make up. And they should be fighting the toxic masculinity that has led them to believe that they must be girls because of the choices they want to make. As males, they need to own the failings of their class to do this, and work to change it. They should be recognizing that biology is the reason for women and girls subjugation, and that they cannot identify into biology. They have the absolute right to feel and act however they please, but that to insist on entering sex segregated spaces provided to protect against female subjugation is to enact female subjugation.
That they are part of the problem that they are purporting to rail against by doing so.

It’s the absolute height of male entitlement to demand entry to a female sex segregated space. To pretend it is anything to do with poor deprived males is an utter nonsense.

This argument is not about being trans. It is rooted solely in biological, and in oppression rooted in biology. Feminists have been fighting gender for years, recognizing it as oppression.

Why would anyone want to centre gender?

Anywhere?

For anything?

We are doing society enormous harm by celebrating gender. These fools who claim to be celebrating gender diversity are cementing gender as the ruling force. They are entrenching it further.

Everyone is damaged by this, not least the poor bloody children who are listening to adults feeding them claptrap and hormones, and slicing and dicing healthy bodies in pursuit of an unattainable goal.

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