To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

I have suggested as has a guide leader discussions to find work arounds.

What workarounds though? If two people cannot be in the same room, one of them has to leave. Choose which one.

What about trans leaders? Come on girls let's share period stories? With Carl, ahem I mean Candi

Dunno what Guide camps you went to, but that's never really been a thing, or never was on all the ones I went to! Do you all sit around the campfire swapping period stories or something? Bit bizarre as we always sang campfire songs or maybe the odd ghost story! Not period stories.

Pressed too soon - I'd actually find a group period story session weird whether it was coming from in your words either a "Carl or a Candi!"

Verbeena mine too but if people want to discuss periods so be it.

I don’t know what the work arounds are.

Again I have no idea why I am expected to have all the answers.

I have faith in open discussion. A guide leader said she would have a discussion to find common ground. This wasn’t challenged because she otherwise agreed with the majority on the thread. I disagree with the majority and am expected to have all the answers. Right now. Absent any of the open debate I have suggested.

I have made suggestions based on my experiences been shot down because my experience is inherently not the same as someone elses.

Yet repeatedly new comers to the thread rehash discussions that have already been had. (Yes Bertrand you have made the same point all day and yes I have given the same answer. That I accept isn’t ideal but I maintain there is no use arguing on things I know nothing about and I am not going off to research for a thread on mn).

We have break out groups for young people who aren’t female. They’re called Scouts.

Not the same. Not a break out group. Whole different organisation.

Swiss, you are falling over yourself to provide new solutions to problems that were solved a long time ago. We have the answers we need, we just need people to respect them.

And tbh, your incessant insistence about how much you love and cherish open discussion is a little grating, when you consider we have been trying and trying to have these conversations but have been threatened with violence and death and rape threats for our trouble.

Hmm not by me.

I have faith in open discussion

You can have all the faith you like, but when there is a dilemma that can't be solved by any amount of discussion at all (two people cannot share a space because one is a biological boy, and the other is a girl who for whatever reason cannot, or is not allowed to, share an activity with a boy - one of them has to go), then your faith in discussion is meaningless.

How many troops have both categories?
Open discussion on a case by case basis could find solutions. Life is about finding common ground. Start with that as the aim and see where things go.

Come on girls let's share period stories? With Carl, ahem I mean Candi.

Why, in every discussion on this subject, does this argument pop up? Is that all that girls want to talk about - period stories, starting periods, dealing with periods? What about politics, economics, poverty, life goals, how to manage finances, how does first past the post voting affect election results - so many topics of conversation yet apparently all girls want to talk about are periods. And that's not a stereotype?

With regards to studies showing that girls answer more questions in single sex classes - wouldn't the fact that there are twice as many girls in a single sex class as a mixed class have something to do with that?

Why do we also only look at the negative aspects of self ID - I don't mean that a male predator might gain access I mean how women stand to lose. What about ways that women could gain - so if a man could self ID to join women only short list or take part in women's sport then presumably a woman could self ID to do something that is currently only open to men?

Swiss you’re being either A) hopelessly naive B) charmingly idealistic and hopelessly naive C) deliberately obtuse or D) all of the above.

How many troops have both categories?
Open discussion on a case by case basis could find solutions

What part of strictly restrictive religious practices will prevent girls being able to JOIN AT ALL are you not understanding or acknowledging?

I’d bloody LOVE to live in a world where all it took was some open discussion to get a consensus. But rightly or wrongly girls will be prevented by religious observance from accessing any GG or Scouting activities.

There won’t be any open discussion. All those girls will be at home, prevented from joining.

Meanwhile trans children who could join Scouting and be welcomed wholeheartedly (trans girl or trans boy or GNC) have access everywhere.

Who is getting ‘equal’ rights here?

Open discussion on a case by case basis could find solutions

You have been told, again and again, the reasons why a solution can't be found, because there's two directly opposing goals. If there is a solution, why don't you say what it is right here, right now?

What part of strictly restrictive religious practices will prevent girls being able to JOIN AT ALL are you not understanding or acknowledging?

When I was in the Guides it was very much a Christian organisation - Church parade was compulsory, the promise included a promise to God. Has this now changed? If not, do many Muslim girls ask to join?

BrownPaperTeddy “apparently all girls want to talk about is periods”

Of course girls and women want to - and DO - discuss all the other things in your post. But you’ve either forgotten what it’s like to be a teenage girl, never been a teenage girl, or never listened to a teenage girl properly to understand them. (Or a teenage girl has never opened up to you so you CAN understand them.)

Puberty. Periods. Female biology. It’s not everything. But it’s hugely, hugely significant and a daily concern to teenage girls, I assure you.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/religious-differences-and-guiding/

Guiding has not been a Christian organisation for a long time and, since the Promise was rewritten, no longer a theist one. Guiding magazine has had several articles over the years mentioning that Guiding was gaining popularity in areas with traditional Muslim populations, because it offered an all-girls environment.

Do you think that a Muslim family who sent their child to guides due to the all girls environment would be happy to send them to be around a girl who openly identifies as a boy? I think that’s unlikely.

I have repeatedly said I don’t know the solution. However there could be one. We don’t know. I have been I forked I this thread that 1) the guides have introduced without thought it open discussio and that 2) there is no solution.

Without open discussion there won’t be a solution.

Again why am I expected to have all the answers.

Do you think that a Muslim family who sent their child to guides due to the all girls environment would be happy to send them to be around a girl who openly identifies as a boy? I think that’s unlikely

Why? Most people know the difference between a girl and a boy. Most parents, whatever their religion, wouldn't get as far as being interested to know what some random girl in their daughters' troupe identifies as. All they'd see is a girl with short hair. All they'd care about is that she is, in fact, another girl.

Without open discussion there won’t be a solution

OK. We've got open discussion right here, in a way that isn't currently allowed in GG. In fact we've got 24 pages of open discussion. And yet no solution.

Porkflute the girl who openly identifies as a boy is, it has been explained to me, still a biological girl.

Because none of us can talk for the guides. And the person who could in a way is a guider who said that her practical solution would be to talk to all parties to find common ground.

Do you think that a Muslim family who sent their child to guides due to the all girls environment would be happy to send them to be around a girl who openly identifies as a boy?

PorkFlute (delightful username, btw) - it’s an interesting question, and I’m not sure. However, based on my limited experience, I’m going with yes, I think they’d be OK with it. Mostly because I think traditional observing Muslims wouldn’t buy into the fiction that the ‘boy’ was really a male person. The’d know the trans person was biologically female and that would satisfy their single sex requirements.

What if this person begins to take cross sex hormones?

And were this child to begin transition several years into guide membership, surely this would result in conversations about transgender issues within his group that this hypothetical Muslim girl's family may object to.