To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Children are literally being trained into claiming dysphoria by a litany if voices telling them they don’t meet the required gendered expectations of their sex.

The solution is to get rid of the bloody expectations, not chip them up and move them to a different box, that they won’t fit into, no matter how many body parts we tinker with.

You don’t treat anorexia with a weightwatchers card.

You are good, Swiss. So many nails, so little jelly successfully nailed.

Anyway. I'm off shortly, I've already stayed beyond my usual cut off time.

Good night all!

See mama that is where we agree. I don’t believe in gender stereotypes and would agree that a dialogue with a trans child to this end would be perfect. Offer choice. That means all doors open not closed.

Where I you expect I will disagree is in holding the sins of the father over the son. Change the narrative. Show young people an inclusive equal model not one based on exclusion.

Curious I have no idea how to interpret that!

I am teaching my children they can be whatever they want and whoever they want to be and that they are not defined by biological sex.

Extend to say blue eyes - blue eyed adults can be bad drivers therefore ban all blue eyed drivers.

Of course not. Equally we don't pretend the blue eyed drivers actually have brown eyes. We don't gaslight.

That is admirable, @Swissgemma - sadly a lot of the inequality suffered by women is based on our biological sex and, until that inequality no longer exists, we will still need biological-sex-based protections.

Remember also, if your daughters become athletes or sportswomen, self ID could (and in fact already has) allow a man, who has grown up male bodied with all the physical benefits that confers (muscle mass, strength, lung capacity, bone density) but who can’t quite make it to the top in the male sport, to transfer into the women’s sport where they will use their biological advantages to overwhelm the natal female competitors.

That is demoralising and heart breaking for women who have striven to be top of their sports.

If, god forbid, one of your dds suffers a sexual assault or domestic violence, she may find a natal man who has self-ID’d as a woman working in Rape Crisis or a DV shelter - and that person’s right to validation as a woman will matter more than the risk that their presence may put off a domestic violence or rape survivor from accessing the services they need.

If your dds want to go into politics, they may find trans women have taken some of the all-too-few places on all-women short lists.

Shon Faye - a vocal trans activist - has said ‘Women - enjoy your erasure’ - that’s right - they want to erase natal women. Is that what you want for your dds?

Women are being to,d they can’t discuss menstruation, because it is trans-exclusionary. Debate is being silenced. Women who question the trans ideology are being threatened with rape and violence, to shut them up. I have seen an image of a t-shirt with a slogan talking about bashing a TERF, and the image of a huge bloodstain - worn my a person with a big smile. I don’t want girls growing up in a world where this is OK.

I am teaching my children they can be whatever they want and whoever they want to be and that they are not defined by biological sex.

Great! I think most of us are doing that. Unfortunately the rest of the world to a greater or lesser extent does see our female children as weaker, more vulnerable, not as clever, not as important. So I'd like girls to be acutely aware of that, recognise it and be prepared to kick ass if they need to.

Allowing trans girls into guides does not stop anyone Being kick ass.

How can women and girls be ‘kick-ass’ when they have been erased, though?

Allowing trans girls into guides does not stop anyone Being kick ass.

It's gaslighting. It's pretending the crap blue eyed drivers have brown eyes. It's not being able to talk about having your bra strap pinged. It's about not being able to talk about how scared you are of your periods starting. Pretending biological differences don't matter is naive. They matter to biological girls more than anything.

Plenty of adult women struggle to make their feelings known to men. At least give our girls a space where their feelings are encouraged and validated.

And actually, single sex spaces DO allow girls to be kick-ass, in a way that shared sex spaces may not.

I saw an account on FB of girls deliberately failing maths tests because their male classmates had an image of what an attractive girl is - and apparently that doesn’t include brains.

Research has shown that girls are far more likely to speak up in class if there are no boys there, and that, when boys are there, they monopolise the class time. Statistical analysis has shown that the boys do the vast majority of the talking, and will talk over the girls - that doesn’t help girls be kick ass.

“Bertrand i am still saying I don’t know enough.”

Very convenient.

SD I have had a teen guide confess to flunking maths for that reason. In a safe space we can discuss that and help her to take charge and prioritize herself over how others see her.
I can’t even have that discussion with a male present. Because they get all defensive and start NAMALTing everywhere, like Swiss is doing with her sins of the fathers stuff.
No one is saying All Men. No one is saying a trans child. But the very presence of a male bodied person prevents naming the problem, and identifying a solution. Exactly because of the ‘not all men’ stuff.
The fact that it exists at all, and in such horrifyingly large numbers, is the reason for sex segregation.
I can’t even believe we are having to argue that sex segregated spaces are essential to promote female empowerment, in an attempt to attain the equality that we all desire.
No magic wand is going up a situation where the fathers teach their sons to behave differently.

I have already suggested several times break out groups etc. We are not, in this instance, talking men in female spaces, we are talking a small number of trans children in guides. Children who identify as girls, who consider themselves female.

I know no one is saying all men but you are saying exclude all trans children because of some trans men.

And what do we do with the trans guide which we're spending the meeting talking about female issues? How do break out groups work? Which group does the trans guide go to? Or do they sit in the hall by themselves?

What about residentials? Ignore safeguarding and put two teens of the opposite sex together?

What about trans leaders? Come on girls let's share period stories? With Carl, ahem I mean Candi.

Bertrand nothing can be gained by anyone arguing about things they know nothing about. It does everyone a dis-service.

I never claimed blue eyed people claimed to be brown eyed. Just that we don’t hold all blue eyed people to account for the failings of other blue eyed people. And similarly all trans people can’t be excluded because of the failings of some. Address the failings not the inclusion.

@SwissGemma 'Notmyname the issue is that with guides we are talking about children who have no choice but to self id they are in the starts of finding their identity. At this point they may well be Ellie - as I suspect the majority if trans people are.'

My apologies Swiss, I did/do have some thoughts (obviously!) vis the GG issue per se but felt the broader issue was A: worth remarking upon for some broader context here; & B: I'm struggling with ADHD here which in turn means I struggle to be succinct, hence post was already very long[embarrassed] That said, I'll try and write those GG specific thoughts here:

1: IIRC we are talking about children aged 10-14 yes? I feel that children that age who are questioning and exploring their sexuality and sense of self should be supported in that and not have their feelings being superimposed upon by what feels like a very very aggressive Trans ideology right now. I say that as a DM to a now 27 year old living happily in the LGBT community and finally at peace with their sense of self. So at a headline level, it concerns me that children are being pushed to 'label' themselves as something way way before their feelings/hormones/sense of self has levelled out.

2: If however we park the above and accept that kids that young can genuinely self ID it seems that current GG policy is itself exclusionary (oh the bloody irony huh?) - namely exclusionary of those born with a vagina.. 'managing them out'. I can't agree with that.

3: In terms of 'inclusionary', I also can't agree that meeting the 'rights' of a tiny minority remotely justifies trampling on the rights of the millions. As it won't be a pollyanna like scenario in which (say) a Muslim girl can negotiate her sleeping arrangements as she won't be there anymore as her parents will either have removed her or not let her go in the first place if they believe a male bodied child will or could be there. THAT is the reality here.

4: It feels like we are being told that those who possess a penis (all of my DC have or have had a penis, patently I'm not coming at this from some 'anti-male' position but rather the protection of the rights of those who are girls and need girls only spaces) have rights which trump those who don't. IE The swathes of girls who won't be allowed to go for religious reasons, girls in foster care, survivors of abuse - they are ALL having something taken away from them in favour of the tiny minority who happen to have penises. That frightens me, as does the slamming down of any discussion of the (many) repercussions of it.

5: The safeguarding issue is just being swept under the carpet. It is naive in the extreme to believe that predatory behaviour suddenly only kicks in at 16. It is horrific to think of any child aged 10-14 committing sexual assault but it happens. It's wilful ignorance (IMO) to just wish that reality away and instead just wait for the first RL assault to occur

6: Lastly, how can parents give informed consent when they are not informed? Male leaders not transitioned but just self ID'd have no place in a group where their mere presence will both alienate groups of girls who arguably need the safe space of GG the most (see 4 above) and potentially pose safeguarding issues. It is cray cray that simply saying 'I'm not Bob anymore, I'm Bobbie'** suddenly erodes years of safeguarding practice.

**To be absolutely clear, I'm not talking about people like Ellie who have fully transitioned and no longer possess male genitalia. With the normal safeguards in place I can't see why she couldn't or shouldn't be a leader. With quite hefty RL experience, I can say I have never known a single fully transitioned woman that I would personally have any innate fears around (although I appreciate others may not share that view) - I'm talking about those who simply self ID as that is where the patently obvious risks and costs lie.

Rtft I am not rehashing a days worth of threads.

Re break out groups very few troops practically have would be impacted. The troops that are can arrange different activities to suit the individuals. Gees the concept of break out groups is pretty mainstream.

And similarly all trans people can’t be excluded because of the failings of some. Address the failings not the inclusion.

You're centering the trans. Because of societies massive inequalities, females NEED their own space. No one says trans are bad people or predators, just that it's more important for girls to have a male-free space, than it is for a handful of trans to be validated by gaining entry to a female space. Centre the girls.

Break out groups are fine when you have several leaders to facilitate each group. Most GG meetings only have one leader - there's a recruitment crisis dontcha know.

“Bertrand nothing can be gained by anyone arguing about things they know nothing about. It does everyone a dis-service”

So that enables you not to engage with the fact that Muslim girls will not be allowed to join Guides if their parents are aware of the possibility of a male bodied guide or leader. That this is one of the cases where there is a conflict of rights with no possibility of compromise, and the Guiding movement has decided that the rights of transgirls trump the rights of Muslim girls.

Not my name. I do largely agree with you. More than I disagree. As I’ve said I do not believe in ideology pushing. I do agree with open discussion. I have no issue with trans leaders. I would expect an element of commitment to transition wrt adults. I have never said I agree with the current policy. I started by saying that trans boys who are members shouldn’t and probably wouldn’t be managed out. I have said I agree that an option at that age to find a space within biological gender should also be defended. I’ve already addressed the safe guarding issues revdkeeo arrangements. I am reacting to a wholesale rejection of inclusion in any terms. Ellie should be welcomed big Ellie can’t be welcomed if as a teenager testing the water she is rejected and made to feel excluded. Ellie’s inclusion, if properly handled shouldn’t impact others. Teach inclusivity. Make the change in the young and don’t rehash old prejudices (not that you are just generally).

Bertrand you would rather I argued from a position of ignorance? What does that gain. I have suggested as has a guide leader discussions to find work arounds.

There can be no “work arounds” Muslim girls will miss out. And not just in troops where there actually is a trans girl, but from Guiding as a whole. I just don’t know why you can’t acknowledge it.