To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Ryan, John, Eric, my chosen name is irrelevant. My point as I’m sure you understood is that I would (with ability to procreate as a biological man aside) be a man. And whatever you thought society should accept Ryan John Eric as a man.

If you have read all my posts i would expect a level of commitment by either transitioning or intention to transition.

It's hard not to get unintentional ear worms when reading trans threads...

Elephant the flip side is also true. Why does your belief hold more strongly than mine?

My point as I’m sure you understood is that I would (with ability to procreate as a biological man aside) be a man.

On what basis would you be a man?

Do you understand that women's oppression has always been based on biological sex and not gender identity?

Elephant the flip side is also true. What is the flip side? I lost that bit!

Elephant the flip side is also true. Why does your belief hold more strongly than mine?

Because my belief is grounded in reality. A man can wear the costume of 'woman', he can change his name, he can ask people to call him 'she'. He can never be a woman. Its literally impossible.

You can't just say 'a man can become a woman because I believe it'.

Believe what you want it doesn’t make it true.

The flip side is, you can believe what you want and it doesn’t make it true.

Why does your belief hold more truth?

Swiss it's inconsistent though - like the no forced shared sleeping spaces but a girl with a penis is a girl like any other and cant be discriminated against for having a penis.

If a transman gives birth do they get maternity or paternity leave? Matters unless both are made the same length, which would discriminate against the gestating parent who has the physical pregnancy, birth, potentially birth injuries, to recover from.

If society accepts you as a man there's always a point at which it breaks down, due to medical aspects of biological sex.

The only way around it is a separate category (or 2 really) for biological male gendered female and biological female gendered male. Pretending that a person with a penis is a woman the same way a natal female is just can't be maintained in all circumstances.

Again elephant question of definition.

Yes biologically I am not saying they can a biological man will always be Biological man. DNA and all that.

However, for all other senses of gender he can be a woman. Gender is a sense of personal identity that should be respected.

However, for all other senses of gender he can be a woman. Gender is a sense of personal identity that should be respected.

Women aren't oppressed on the basis of their 'gender identity' they are oppressed on the basis of their biological sex. Nothing else.

So your dismissal of biology (DNA and all that) is, quite frankly, offensive.

Women have spent millenia being oppressed on the basis of their biology, and continue to be so, and now people are coming along and saying 'pah, biology, it doesn't matter'. Tell that to all the women who couldn't and can't 'identify' out of their oppression.

Swiss is having fun totally yanking your chains and bait well and truly taken 🙄

Blue skies if you read my shared sleep point - I would extend to same biological sex why should anyone be forced to share sleep space. I actively petitioned not to share with a same sex bully in guides.

It is the choice you make re pregnancy personally I would have equivalent maternity and paternity leave is any event.

Yes medically you are a biological man or woman and medical care would have to take account of that.

No trans man would expect to be able to give birth as a biological woman.

The reality is that the trans people are aware of their own biology. They take steps to address it as far as possible.

Talking of trans children. We need to offer generally more support. And allow children who believe they are transgender space to deal with that and to live 100% as the opposite sex and be accepted.

I offered ways in which guides could accomodate this while still protecting the majority of biological girls. I accepted that I don’t know enough to wade in on religious grounds.

In respect of this thread on guides we owe it to all children to open the debate rather than knee jerk exclusion. And should work with inclusion as the goal.

Ikea You may ind that some of us here have been having a long, slow day, typing up reports.

Swiss has been an amusing distraction from that, so, frankly, I don't care what motivation there may or may not have been!

We aren't all naive bunnies, you know!

that is not what's happening at all. If a boy thinks he is a girl, he is welcomed with open arms; if a girl thinks she is a boy, she is phased out of the organisation

It's tits up batshit crazy. Simple as.

Elephant, with respect I am not looking backwards but forwards.

Oppression of women has nothing to do with the majority of trans men who just want to live their lives.

If I move to a new town as a man. Dress as a man. Accept male pronouns. Absent any other information I am a man. Are you saying my biology will somehow reveal itself and allow discrimination?

How does a man choosing to be a woman impact on your own biology? Is it not to use your argument one more woman to be opressed?

I don’t believe that by the way. As stated I do think women have had a raw deal and I do think we as women need to continue to fight for our position and equality. I don’t see how a trans woman changes this. I see one more woman in the fight.

Ikea I’m offering my opinion.

Okay, if we take away the argument of what gender is for a sec, and theoretically accept it as an innate sense of self - can I ask Gemma, what your opinion is on sex being a protected characteristic and gender not being? Ie GG were allowed to be single sex as sex is a protected characteristic.

You could, I guess, argue that including some males who identify as girls can be allowed (though technically the law does depend on proportionate response to legitimate demands...) based on the PC of transsexualism, but that doesn't mean females who identify as boys should have to leave as there is no basis for GG to exist as a single gender org. Do you see what I mean? What's your opinion on that?

Absent any other information I am a man

No. You are confusing being With seeming. it doesn’t matter about the external trappings - the biology remains. Do you honestly think that just changing the way something looks is enough to change its fundamental being? That’s a very shallow view.

Are you saying my biology will somehow reveal itself and allow discrimination?

Yes. Of course. You can’t change your sex by looking a bit different. You can’t identify out of biology.

This insistence that by changing something’s external appearance you change its fundamental nature is really disturbing. Do people really think like that? It’s an indictment of our current zeitgeist maybe - appearance is all.

I've sat here quietly reading thread as it's unfolded and feel that this point has not very simply and very clearly been made:

This is about way way more than 'just' the GG issue; it's about the fatally flawed entire self-IDing issue.

I feel no threat from a genuine transwoman using the female only changing facility with me, none. I appreciate others may not share that view but that's mine.

However... I feel MASSIVELY fucking threatened by the flimsiness of self-ID'ing and the de facto (& patently clear and real) risk of predatory males now having legit access to my previously safe space via simply self-IDing.

By their nature, male sexual predators who seek female victims target places and organisations where they have access to girls and women (ie as per the heinous history of 'priests' who wanted to target boys pursuing a religious vocation as it gave them both that access as well as simultaneously an automatic cloak of respectability).

You do not have to be a genius to instantly see that it is/will be only a matter of time before a girl or woman is sexually assaulted by a man who has gained access to what was previously a SAFE FUCKING PLACE simply by dint of claiming he ID's as a she.

You can tinkle away and claim that my asserting this obvious fact makes me transphobic but that is clearly bollocks and the weakest of strawman arguements.

So I'm left with wanting to support the genuine tranwoman (let's call her Ellie) who wants to use the changing room, and also wanting to maintain safe spaces for girls and women and, regrettably, there is an inherent clash between those two desires as only a blind person would claim there will not/never will be predatory males utilising the very same self ID'ing as Ellie but for very fucking different reasons.

Ergo it then becomes a question of whose rights matter more? Ellie's right to access those spaces - at the price of opening up female only safe spaces to those with ill intent - OR every biologically born woman and girls right to maintain their safe spaces?

I don't know the stats but relatively speaking Ellie et al (IE genuine transwomen) are a tiny number compared to the c.25-30 million females in this country so it's patently clear which right should triumph in that clash. My problem is what seems to be happening is that the needs and wants of the minority % are - seemingly even without challenge (or, worse in terms of seeking decent outcomes for everyone, any challenge automatically and lazily being mis-labelled as 'transphobic') - sweeping away the rights of the many.

How is this not blindingly obvious to everyone??

Are you saying my biology will somehow reveal itself and allow discrimination?

Yup. There was a very sad case of a trans man who was raped a few months ago where, during the attack the victim kept telling the rapist that she was actually male, thinking that this would stop the rapist.
Of course it didn’t, the rapist could easily tell that the victim was female. Very sad.

Beyond: personally as I have said I woukdn’t exclude a trans boy who is already a guide and I suspect no guide troop would in reality.

Babelfish: absent any further information my new neighbours in my example would take it as given that I am a man. When I changed countries I didn’t flash my fanny to prove gender I was just taken as the gender I identified as.

I have already said clothes change nothing. But are part of a wider self identity. I am currently wearing dhs track pants and t shirt. I’m still a biological woman who identifies as female.

Notmyname the issue is that with guides we are talking about children who have no choice but to self id they are in the starts of finding their identity. At this point they may well be Ellie - as I suspect the majority if trans people are.

There are different debates for adults. I have touched on my views and think they are similar to yours.

Trans men already have given birth as biological women.

Https:en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Beatie

That's far from the only case.

So no, it'll never happen.

Women have to recover from pregnancy and birth and if breastfeeding is to happen only the biological woman who has gestated can do it. A woman who has had a C-section (25% of births) is recovering from major abdominal surgery which would merit 6 weeks leave in equivalent non maternity scenarios such as hysterectomy. Many, many vaginal deliveries result in birth injuries, some of which need later surgery to correct.

Why do you think natal women dont deserve maternity leave to allow physical recovery in addition to parenting leave shated equally with the non gestating parent?