To ring ds's school over this draconian policy and its implementation?

[stillpinching]

DS1 started secondary school this month after a summer of counting down the days and so far he is mainly loving it. They are very big on achievement points and there is competition between the houses for them and extra for whoever gets the most in their house/year etc. Ds has grumbled a bit about how he'll never win etc, but he was a high achiever in a tiny primary school so it was always going to be a shock to the system to be one of 200, and we've spoken a lot about doing his best, taking pride in his work for its own sake and the fact that these systems are always imperfect. Overall, he is happy about the ones he's got rather than moaning about those he hasn't, iyswim. Some teachers have told him they've given him points and then not put them on the system (we get phone notifications) and that's annoying, but I've encouraged him to politely remind them if he can, and to not make too big of a deal of it - though the school does in fact make a big deal of the points...

The school is also big on uniform and pupils carry a card which staff can sign if there is any problem with the uniform, including shirts untucked. Today I saw this card for the first time and saw that ds got a cross on his second day. Apparently he came out of the toilet with his shirt slightly untucked, as did his friend, who also got a cross. However, tonight ds suddenly burst into floods of tears over it and was inconsolable for a time. He is upset because his friend somehow got the tick removed (presumably his parents rang in?) and was there the next day showing round a brand new card. Also, his head of year came and did a 'card check' at some point this week and ds and one other were the only ones with crosses. They had to stand up and she made some comment about how they better not get more etc. Ds says he was humiliated. I think he needs to be resilient and have done my best to play it down, but it was horrible seeing him so upset.

He was so well motivated after attending the taster days last term and all I heard about for days after was what this woman had said in the assembly, but now he feels she hates him. Of course I have played it down and tried to put it in perspective for him, but I'm a bit cross. Of course it was fair he got the cross, but if they're going to be that strict, how did the other boy get a new card the next day and show off about it?

I would like to speak to the head of year as in her position I would like to know that a child had taken my words so much to heart, but perhaps that's silly? While I'm at it, I'd like to mention that teachers should be putting the points on the system if they've promised them, especially since the school makes such a thing of them. AIBU?

And does it work? Or does it just terrify the ‘good’ students they have?

Friends son at ds2’s grammar got a detention in year 7 for taking off his blazer during a heatwave. Ffs. What do they hope to achieve? DS2 said some teachers allowed you to take them off but others made you keep them on (quite why any teacher would favour a class of extra sweaty teenage boys is beyond me).

I think it can work if the system is well designed, consistently applied and goes hand in hand with staff demonstrating they care. They aren't systems I would personally choose, but using them has improved some of the schools in my area and has meant that more children are leaving school with a reasonable bunch of GCSEs which will allow them to make their next steps to college, training etc. Staff are able to go to work and not be verbally abused or assaulted. Students who want to learn are able to learn because a very rigid behaviour system means that those disrupting learning are dealt with. Etc.

If the system is poorly designed, poorly applied then I can't see it working well (e.g. insisting students must keep blazers on in a heatwave is pointless and even counterproductive to learning)

Maisy that's why I am torn, because I know the school my dd attends had a big issue with behaviour and attitude before, and worse results. There's no doubt that sitting heavily on all infringements of rules even in a petty and rigid way does produce better behaviour in the minority. It is balanced in her school with good pastoral care, lots of clubs and teachers genuinely interested in the students, so the overall experience is one of a very nice bootcamp.

I mean to say better behaviour in the majority of course.

My Ds goes to a none uniform secondary school. I spoke to a teacher on open day before I applied he said he had worked in uniformed schools he preferred none uniform it meant he didn’t waste time dealing with real issues and not breaches of uniform . My Ds has not been there long but they are not lax on discipline.

Yeah starlight - ds3’s School is in a deprived area - student body very mixed and they have a very sensible uniform policy (borders on non-uniform). The staff and pupils have really good relationships and it seems time is spent on important stuff.

I work with severe challenging behaviour and think bootcamp schools often make that a lot worse....

Maybe they do something with less severe sloppy type behaviour though? But at what cost? Ds2 is very robust and knew exactly how to treat the petty rules in his grammar to stay just the right side of them to not get told off 99% of the time and to not care the other 1%. I am certain ds3 would have been a wreck - he’s an anxious child anyway and wants to do well and would have spent his whole time worrying about breaking rules accidentally.

Katyy and others: you haven’t been looking very closely at what is going in secondary schools if you think this is about “pride in appearance “.

It is part of the zero-tolerance approach to any infringement and used to drill students into an authoritarian regime. Often goes along with new Academy status, introduction of a new uniform, House system and walking in silence with their hands behind their backs.

OP, I would teach him a certain level of cynicism towards House points etc. He sounds like a well behaved boy who wants to do well, he doesn’t need to be trained like a dog.

His academic work is important, he needs to treat people with respect and kindness, be honest and careful.

House points over tucked in shirts is a load of bobbins.

Agree entirely with knots.

They had those at dd school in their homework diaries 🙄
Also a detention page - dd’s class got a whole class detention And the teacher took dd out of the room just before the end and told her to go to break now before she signed them as it wasn’t fair for her to get that as she was not involved -
I thought that was really nice actually - she made it thru 5 yrs without one

I would contact HOY but more in a general pastoral care way than specifics.

So ds came home on Friday and was crying because he's finding the whole system of having to be continually perfect and then when he does get house points they are on the system.
He's feeling the pressure to make absolutely no mistake - however small - overwhelming. This isn't helped when other children get minor indiscretions wiped and teachers publicly humiliate pupils over something as small as "shirt not tucked in correctly as they leave the bathroom".
I'm sure you'll agree this level of perfection is not a reflection of real life and it would be great for you have a a discussion and reassuring chat with DS that these things really aren't a major deal. Whilst looking at how the policies are implemented fairly and within reasonable parameters.

No child should be afraid of school or afraid of being human. We are continuously hearing about how secondary school children are having increased MH difficulties. It's this sort of shit thats causing them

I wouldn’t send my kids to these boot camp schools, unless I had no choice.

We had a no-uniform school, it was brilliant. It was a well run school, behaviour was really good, none of the presumed ‘horrors’ of no uniform were manifest at all. No one fussed or took hours getting ready, because it was ‘normal’. A happy, relaxed, hard working school where you felt teachers and leadership actually liked young people rather than treating them like beasts to be tamed.

Don't contact the HOY and say he's weepy and not coping. It's your job as mum to make him feel better and stop counting the bloody house points!!

All these ridiculous uniform rules in schools are nuts!

To all who said he should suck it up- he did, until others were treated differently and the HoY raked it up again ( though it seems she wasn't as harsh as I thought at first.)

As for house points, it's hard not to notice them when notifications are coming through and it seems the school is always on about them. I wish it wasn't so competitive and I definitely will be working on ds not thinking he has to be perfect/come top.

Whoever said as his mum I should be making him feel better, not the school, yes, and I believe I have done that, but it's not on that school causes upset that has to be kept in at school and then bubbles over. Mental well-being is a thing and they have a responsibility towards the children who are with them all day.

My dd struggled with this for the first two weeks of Year 7, then she seemed to relax about it all. We have had the odd stress along the way in terms of feeling sanctions are unfair, and I do think for a well-behaved and hard working child, this is not necessarily all necessary IF they were in a school with similar children who were more self-regulating.

Forget all this "as a Mum you should make him feel better".

I spent a year doing this for my son and trying my dammed hardest to make MH son see the positives in a school that was destroying his MH. School constantly blamed me. Didn't stop him ending up in Camhs for self harming and being referred to CBT for school anxiety. his new school didn't ever make him feel this way and healed his fractured MH. He wasn't different (same kid and still autistic), I wasn't different - continued to talk about school positively and focus on things he's good at.

NEVER underestimate the damage a school ethos can have on a child when they make them feel they'll never be good enough or on constant high alert for permanent perfection.

This is such a typical mumsnet thread

Son goes to school that has strict uniform policy and house points

Son infringes uniform policy

Son cries, mum up in arms

Posters say just reassure him that it doesn't matter, don't involve HOY there is no case to answer

Posters appear saying of course its not parents responsibility to reassure them it's the schools because otherwose it's going to trigger serious mh issues and Camhs

He didn't infringe the uniform policy, sometimes a shirt becomes untucked, he wasn't being defiant.

So good to see UK schools focusing on what’s really important

Public humiliation is really awful. I went to a private convent school for girls and this used to happen to me in their middle school. They used to read out the results of every girl in the school. I was going through hell at the time, with SA at home and at other places (I've talked about this on other threads). I was, not surprisingly, bottom of the class regularly, and it just added to my feelings of worthlessness.

I managed to get 2 degrees in the end, but I nevertheless still have very low self-esteem.

What's the point of housepoints if parents then have to teach their children how unimportant they are?

What a fucking waste of everyone's time and energy.

An untucked shirt is going to make fuck all difference to actually learning, which is what school is all about. Ffs why are schools being run like a totalitarian oppressive regime

youarenotkiddingme

NEVER underestimate the damage a school ethos can have on a child when they make them feel they'll never be good enough or on constant high alert for permanent perfection.

NEVER underestimate the damage parents can have on a child when they make them feel their invincible when it comes to school sanctions and if they don't like a rule they don't have to follow it.

There needs to be a healthy balance when it comes to rules.