To ring ds's school over this draconian policy and its implementation?

[stillpinching]

DS1 started secondary school this month after a summer of counting down the days and so far he is mainly loving it. They are very big on achievement points and there is competition between the houses for them and extra for whoever gets the most in their house/year etc. Ds has grumbled a bit about how he'll never win etc, but he was a high achiever in a tiny primary school so it was always going to be a shock to the system to be one of 200, and we've spoken a lot about doing his best, taking pride in his work for its own sake and the fact that these systems are always imperfect. Overall, he is happy about the ones he's got rather than moaning about those he hasn't, iyswim. Some teachers have told him they've given him points and then not put them on the system (we get phone notifications) and that's annoying, but I've encouraged him to politely remind them if he can, and to not make too big of a deal of it - though the school does in fact make a big deal of the points...

The school is also big on uniform and pupils carry a card which staff can sign if there is any problem with the uniform, including shirts untucked. Today I saw this card for the first time and saw that ds got a cross on his second day. Apparently he came out of the toilet with his shirt slightly untucked, as did his friend, who also got a cross. However, tonight ds suddenly burst into floods of tears over it and was inconsolable for a time. He is upset because his friend somehow got the tick removed (presumably his parents rang in?) and was there the next day showing round a brand new card. Also, his head of year came and did a 'card check' at some point this week and ds and one other were the only ones with crosses. They had to stand up and she made some comment about how they better not get more etc. Ds says he was humiliated. I think he needs to be resilient and have done my best to play it down, but it was horrible seeing him so upset.

He was so well motivated after attending the taster days last term and all I heard about for days after was what this woman had said in the assembly, but now he feels she hates him. Of course I have played it down and tried to put it in perspective for him, but I'm a bit cross. Of course it was fair he got the cross, but if they're going to be that strict, how did the other boy get a new card the next day and show off about it?

I would like to speak to the head of year as in her position I would like to know that a child had taken my words so much to heart, but perhaps that's silly? While I'm at it, I'd like to mention that teachers should be putting the points on the system if they've promised them, especially since the school makes such a thing of them. AIBU?

I would say don't take it up with the teacher. They are usually the poor buggers at the frontline of having to implement a stupid, draconian system, deal with the associated paperwork while the majority of reasonable teachers privately think that this sort of thing is not only a waste of time, but also a way of quickly souring relationships with kids and parents alike.

I left a school, because I couldn't be arsed to implement such a system anymore, while I did have one or two colleagues who were inappropriately gleeful somehow

Take it up with heads of year/ senior leadership or the head themselves. And look for another school as this is unlikely to go away, but is usually a way of papering over way bigger cracks.

There is a discussion on the education boards I think about a mum whose child's school has gone even more draconian. It's a new fashion, my dd's comp is like this, they have an elaborate system of discipline and every tiny infraction (forgetting a pencil, not wearing uniform absolutely correctly, speaking in class) is jumped on. You are not even allowed to remark on another teacher -if you do its immediate exclusion in the behaviour room. Detentions are automatic for forgotten homework whereas at another school I know, there's a warning and a 24 hour rectification period before detention.

The positive side of it all is that in a formerly difficult school, it is quiet, everyone knows where they stand, and learning is not constantly disrupted by half the class not having pencils, being silly/loud and general crap.

The bad side of it is that it's almost impossible not to do minor things wrong- the staff would definitely spend a lot of time in isolation themselves as their dress is absolutely not always impeccable, they sometimes forget a book/item for the class, and they also say bad things about other teachers or roll their eyes. It makes formerly 'good kids' into bad ones because sooner or later, because they are human, they might forget the right book even though they've done the homework or a shirt becomes untucked/tie gets lost. Some more sensitive children find this type of regime a nightmare, tougher kids often don't care about the sanctions.

I don't like this type of regime for my child as they are well-behaved, work hard and it can cause anxiety but that's our local school now and it's ramped the discipline up again this year, so there are no warnings for lots of really quite normal behaviours. It seems to be an educational fad we all have to go through.

I had a dc like this. Very sensitive to criticism and punishment. Over sensitive really. And the system was counter productive for him. However I don't disagree with the system at all. If you've 1000 kids all with their shirts hanging out it engenders sloppy habits.
But I did have a chat with dc's teacher. Asked her to get the message out that though he's to be given exactly the same demerits as he deserves, to not have it drawn attention to in any way by teachers beyond the giving out of detentions and I would do the 'counselling'. It made things much better for dc

Well, just to update we've had a chat this morning because I wanted to be absolutely sure I had my facts right before ringing (I will be ringing).

Turns out head of year didn't make him stand up, but did say he'd better not get any more in "not a horrible voice but not a nice voice," according to Ds. So not too bad, just standard head of year posturing (my bf is a hoy) . He is upset (not really upset now) that some of his friends are taught by her and love her and she's nice to them and he thinks she hates him in comparison, but I've said of course not and she'll get to know the year group in time and know he's a good kid if he keeps working hard.

Unfortunately he's also told me someone in his form walked into assembly with his shirt untucked and was given a warning not a cross by this same hoy. I am cross about that because it seems they're being very inconsistent with this system, so that's what I'm going to focus on, politely, when I ring.

Most teachers (I was one) don't think it's a waste of time. It's the front line in keeping an orderly environment so that all the children can learn. A zero tolerance policy gets the vast majority adhering to sensible standards within a short time, allowing teachers to concentrate their 'disciplinary' efforts on the hard core.

I don't think YABU at all .I would have no qualms in ringing and politely but firmly putting my point across .Yes rules are rules but seriously they need to cut the Yr 7 some slack in the when they first move up My DD has just started secondary this month and it big step up so they are trying to remember the rules but something like that an slightly untucked shirt I would be cross too and I would also want a very good explanation why they treated the two children differently.

By second year they will be proud of their ticks and be delighted to show all their friends how cool they are not caring. I hate those ticks as my ds got piles of them as he has dyspraxia and was shown absolutely no mercy for minor infringements that are natural to someone with dyspraxia. It was like giving a child with a limp a tick for not walking straight as l told principal on my many visits to discuss my dss bad behaviour. Only upside was the other guys thought he was so cool getting loads of ticks and plainly not giving a dam as he kept doing it. ( inside he was a nervous wreck)

Orderly environment? Ha

No kids are most likely being bullied and having their stuff nicked while you congratulate yourself on a job well done because every shirt is tucked in

The fact you can even say that shows how little focus you probabky have on the really important stuff.

Most teachers (I was one) don't think it's a waste of time. It's the front line in keeping an orderly environment so that all the children can learn.

There is orderly and there is punitive. TBH I'd rather a child had their shirt untucked, but applied themselves well in my lessons than a bunch of "orderly", but scared-to-make-a-wrong-movement kids, who are more worried about their sleeves than what I'm teaching them.

Such schools are not applying common sense. Common sense tells us that these are children, human being, which will get things wrong occasionally. In the world of work, a tiny infringement like having hair slightly too short would in any reasonable environment result in a conversation, not an immediate punishment.

The school I used to work in had me spend 15 out of my valuable 60min in every lesson filling in pointless cards on pointless infringements. It took the focus away from learning.

But then I prefer to teach in an environment, in which children are able to ask questions, voice opinions and come to a reasonable understanding.

Whatever happened to a firm "Jones tuck in that shirt," ?.
Teachers should be able to differentiate between defiance and a wardrobe malfunction.
Very true.
Based on schools I've been in the 'tuck your shirt in' approach works perfectly in schools witj a decent behaviour management system, generally well behaved students and an ethos of respect. I politely remind students about uniform and they correct it.

At another school I worked in you'd mention a uniform issue and what youd get in response was 'eh no! I wouldn't dare. It's just... oh fuckssake! No. Oh my god-duh. I'm off. See ya!'

In my experience it's generally schools with a reasonable amount of the second situation that end up going down the very picky, precise type of route.

OP So the version of events was nothing like originally presented to you?
You seem fairly reasonable but i wish we could keep these sorts of examples for threads where teachers say 'get the facts before being fuming at school because even lovely students can be economical with the truth'.
Hope your chat goes well.

Gait enough, ferries, but this is not a rebellious pupil deliberately flouting school rules. This was a pupil really enthusiastic and excited about secondary school who wanted to keep the rules, work hard and do well. One who even kept trying his uniform on all summer, presumably with the shirt tucked in. Then on day 2 he is in trouble for an oversight rather than bad behaviour, then rather than that being it, it is further ratcheted up by being singled out by HOY. They have basically stamped on his good will and enthusiasm for school! It is likely that the shine would have come off at some stage, but in week 2 that is just so sad.

In OP, I would say something; I wouldn’t mind being ‘that’ parent seeing as it’s ‘that’ school.

Meh. I would just shrug and say never mind. Stop trying to win the ultimate prize and just get on with things.

This sounds like an Academy under new management. There is a lot of this at the moment. I have never bought into the idea that turning a school into a police state drives up standards. The kids need to be able to respect the rules, or the rules become a problem in themselves, a source of stress and even the cause of mental health problems.

Trying to be perfect causes mental health issues.

Accepting that you had your shirt out momentarily and got a cross for it, while simultaneously thinking its a bit bollocks, but not freaking out that you won't win the house prize, that's mentally healthy

Rather than victim mentality why not see it as a challenge to ensure he sorts his appearance out.

The trouble is, if pupils are thinking the rules are bollocks in the second week of Y7 it doesn’t really bode well for school discipline.

draconian? Blimey learn to suck it up.

Rather than victim mentality why not see it as a challenge to ensure he sorts his appearance out

Meant to say I agree with this ^^

It sounds like he was already very proud of his appearance what with trying his uniform on throughout the summer. This sounds more like an oversight than not sorting out his appearance.

I wouldn’t bother talking to the school but I would talk to him about the unfairness of some aspects of School discipline. I used to tell Ds2 to ‘play the game’ (his School had a whole load of petty rules, haven’t had to have that conversation with ds3 because his school is sane & not a bootcamp).

I honestly think schools have lost the plot at the moment.

But agree with others - focus on teaching him to recognise which rules are important, which are ridiculous and to recognise if he gets picked up for breaking a stupid rule it doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

Ds2 narrowly avoided a detention for having socks the ‘wrong colour grey’ - I had no idea only certain shades were acceptable. He was pleased to miss the detention but treated the rule with the contempt it deserved (ie paid no attention other than to ensure if he accidentally put on the wrong socks he didn’t get caught).

womanintrousers
Isn't the explanation for your dd's school skirt being considered too short one day and perfect the next that she'd rolled it up on the first day?

In my experience it's generally schools with a reasonable amount of the second situation that end up going down the very picky, precise type of route

(Picky School was a grammar - no particular behaviour issues(

Devilishpyjamas
I stand corrected.
In my area we don't have grammars. Most the excellent schools have an easily sourced uniform but expect it following properly. There's no over the top monitoring, polite requests are met with polite following of instructions.

The schools in my area that have gone down the route of single supply, endless monitoring are almost entirely the ones with a long history of poor behaviour, poor results etc