To ring ds's school over this draconian policy and its implementation?

[stillpinching]

DS1 started secondary school this month after a summer of counting down the days and so far he is mainly loving it. They are very big on achievement points and there is competition between the houses for them and extra for whoever gets the most in their house/year etc. Ds has grumbled a bit about how he'll never win etc, but he was a high achiever in a tiny primary school so it was always going to be a shock to the system to be one of 200, and we've spoken a lot about doing his best, taking pride in his work for its own sake and the fact that these systems are always imperfect. Overall, he is happy about the ones he's got rather than moaning about those he hasn't, iyswim. Some teachers have told him they've given him points and then not put them on the system (we get phone notifications) and that's annoying, but I've encouraged him to politely remind them if he can, and to not make too big of a deal of it - though the school does in fact make a big deal of the points...

The school is also big on uniform and pupils carry a card which staff can sign if there is any problem with the uniform, including shirts untucked. Today I saw this card for the first time and saw that ds got a cross on his second day. Apparently he came out of the toilet with his shirt slightly untucked, as did his friend, who also got a cross. However, tonight ds suddenly burst into floods of tears over it and was inconsolable for a time. He is upset because his friend somehow got the tick removed (presumably his parents rang in?) and was there the next day showing round a brand new card. Also, his head of year came and did a 'card check' at some point this week and ds and one other were the only ones with crosses. They had to stand up and she made some comment about how they better not get more etc. Ds says he was humiliated. I think he needs to be resilient and have done my best to play it down, but it was horrible seeing him so upset.

He was so well motivated after attending the taster days last term and all I heard about for days after was what this woman had said in the assembly, but now he feels she hates him. Of course I have played it down and tried to put it in perspective for him, but I'm a bit cross. Of course it was fair he got the cross, but if they're going to be that strict, how did the other boy get a new card the next day and show off about it?

I would like to speak to the head of year as in her position I would like to know that a child had taken my words so much to heart, but perhaps that's silly? While I'm at it, I'd like to mention that teachers should be putting the points on the system if they've promised them, especially since the school makes such a thing of them. AIBU?

It's important not to back a school up when they start bullying pupils over ludicrous, pointless 'rules' as that is often a danger sign of a school going in the wrong direction.

I agree. I hate this sort of pettiness. It gives me the creeps. Like their focus is on prepping children to be passive little sheep who just stick to whatever rules are shoved down their throats. You can encourage Yr7s to take pride in their appearance by gently saying, 'tuck your shirts in lads' when they come out of the loos. There's no need for heavyhandedness over something so minor.

I'd have a word and explain how deeply effected he's been by the public humiliation and the injustice of the friend's new card. If they insist of this sort of thing, then it's inevitable parents and pupils will call them out on inconsistencies.

I would have thought an untucked shirt should merit a reprimand at this stage (just starting year 7) and not a cross on your DS's card. Maybe a warning that next time there will be a cross on his card? The children are adapting to a new set of school rules and they should be given a little time to adapt.

The lack of consistency is also an issue, your DS has a right to feel aggrieved that his friend has been treated differently.

I think it is worth bringing this up with the school. Teachers do get things wrong sometimes and we are supposed to be our children's advocates when they need us.

Absolutely what Anouk said
What the fuck is wrong with people? Of course this is Draconian! You've got a child here, who was we'll set up to learn, motivated, enthusiastic and keen to please but you think that positive attitude is less important than an accidentally untucked shirt?
If so, fuck you frankly.

And I'm an ex secondary teacher.

The only thing I'd be annoyed at is your ds being made to stand up to be told off publicly.

I'm a teacher and do sometimes forget to award achievement points that I've said I will. I teach in different classrooms so am running around and logging on to different computers etc.

I wouldn't mention the achievement point thing at the same time, as it would detract away from the main issue.

Sigh. This makes me sad. My DD1 has finally left her secondary school after 5 years of hell. 5 years where they took my lovely bright motivated girl and systemically broke her over fucking stupid pettiness . Looking back she was clearly bullied by the teachers and the school. The ones that I trusted to nourish and care for her. Afraid the more I said and tried to make things better the worse it got. Now she is finally out she is divulging more and more about how anxious and nervous she felt. Her predicted high results were disappointing. Less than a month away she is starting to come back to her old self. She wakes up to get ready for college. She is bright and happy. I will never forgive the school or myself for letting them break her. My DD2 will not be going there.

I wouldn't be annoyed by the cross on the uniform card as i wouldn't see that as a punishment in itself. Dd also year 7 got a strike (3 = a detention) for forgetting a book and i just thought good that she is being given chances before getting a detention. That will be enough to make her remember. She was fine with that but the standing up thing would have upset her. The first few weeks of year 7 are an exciting but emotional time for them. Someone else getting their strike removed would gave irritated her too

I think the most important thing you can do for your DC is to teach them that this sort of shit is ridiculous and they shouldn't let it get to them (because, unfortunately, we do have a culture of schools pandering to the worst sort of Daily Mail wanker and following the utterly false idea that children need to be crushed and forced to obey without question.) Take it up with the school, too - but be aware they may fob you off with bullshit about 'respect'. Teaching kids that respect has to be earned and deserved, and those who demand it need to give it as well as getting it, will serve them better than wringing your hands and telling them they need to learn to obey.

The only thing worse than pedantic, OTT, pointless monitoring systems are pedantic, OTT, pointless monitoring systems that aren't applied fairly.

I'm a teacher myself and I'd laugh in the face of my Head if they suggested this. You aren't careful about your appearance because if you don't you get a little cross in a box and punishments for too many crosses. You're careful about your appearance because taking care of yourself is important for your own self respect and own self esteem. That's what I try to inculcate in my students - not to study/behave/look good because otherwise I'll punish them, but rather because their attitude/behaviour/appearance is up to them, and they should take responsibility for it.

It sounds like a school prepping students for an Amazon warehouse job.

Take whatever steps you want. You can't possibly be more unreasonable than the system inherently is itself.

I thinks it’s more about respect for rules and pride in appearance yeah, cos humiliation will improve those areas, hey!

Whatever happened to a firm "Jones tuck in that shirt," ?.

Teachers should be able to differentiate between defiance and a wardrobe malfunction.

I'd also emphasise the message that it's really undermining the school to give the DC the message that they can't control outcomes - setting up this big points thing and making a big deal out of it but then doing it really inconsistently and in a petty way, and essentially making the DC shut up and put up, trains them that they don't have control over it. And the logical responses are to disengage (and you don't want them learning to disengage from rewards and achievement at school) or rebel. Also if it's petty and clearly not related to anything educational, the DC will get cynical about other messages from school too. Teenagers question authority anyway - nothing like authority being patently ridiculous, petty and infuriating to draw that out!

It's draconian, but unfortunately, many schools have similar approaches to transgressions, however minor, of the rules that are in place, and which the students know.

If a school has a rule, that rule has to be followed (says the school) or there will be consequences.

I'd do what a few others have suggested- be your son's ally, without fighting his battles for him. An untucked shirt is nothing. You know that, he knows it. It ends there. It's the beginning of his secondary career and he'll hopefully laugh about it in future. I would play it down, say "well, sadly, you go to a school with batshit rules" Make him know you're not cross with him. Focus on the first sentence of your OP- that he's mainly loving it. Does he want you to intervene?

I know it's hard not to, but it's a choose-your-battles thing. He broke a rule (whether the rule is batshit or not, which it is, is irrelevant) He's been told off for it. He's woken up and realised, sadly, it's not primary anymore, and that sort of thing is going to happen.

Cal and sat what exactly? They won’t change anything because you complain.
Perhaps teach your child resilience and not to worry about a bit of criticism - life if going to be much harder in the future and he should worry at all about this.

If this is new they are probably aware that they're ironing out the wrinkles in it.
No harm in letting them know how it has affected your DS's enthusiasm to school, that teachers are inconsistent, that it's being used to publicly humiliate Y7s and that if they're going to make such a big deal out of it they really must be completely consistent and fair, or students will get cynical and lose motivation.
I'd let them know. Just as your DS is expected to forget and move on, they'll be able to take in the information and move on from your phone call, and no lasting harm will be done.

Regardless of how 'sensitive' they are, nobody in the entire world responds well to being publically humiliated. Teachers that do this are abusing thier position of power over the students and are either bullies at heart or at best have lost all empathy. Calling two children out in front of the class.was very poor behaviour on the teacher's part in my view, particularly over such a piddling thing like an inadvertently untucked shirt on coming out of the toilet

I am not sure what I would do but I am so happy we chose a school with a less ridiculous policy on behaviour/uniform

Maybe focus on the unfairness of the other child having the mark removed if you complain (which I would do and I am very very far from being 'that parent' )

There is no point making a fuss about the actual giving of the mark as despite it being a ridiculous punishment in my view a complaint about the cross being given all will mark you out as ' that parent' and it is always best to keep the best relationship you can with the school. Your child will generally be treated better and given the benefit of the doubt more if the school thinks their parents are reasonable/ good parents in their eyes.

With MinaPas, TotHappy et al. What the fuck is wrong with the UK education system lately? When I went to secondary we had a uniform and then at upper school a 'dress code' (shirt/skirt/trousers/jumper in a specific colour) and I remember none of this draconian enforcement nonsense and it was fine and none of my contemporaries seem to have entered the world of work unable to dress appropriately. My kids now in a non-UK system have no uniform at all and people here seem to look perfectly smart for business etc where it demands, plus I have never known one of their classes descend into anarchy. This sort of 'your shirt is untucked, boy!' nonsense looks very much like either a power trip or (at the societal level) an attempt at papering over huge cracks elsewhere. And tbh I thought the days of humiliating children had died out with my old maths teacher who made children stand on chairs and shouted at them for perceived misdemeaours and was considered out of step in the early 90s. I would be calling the HOY, finding out what happened and making it politely but assertively clear you are very happy to support the school but not these kinds of methods. I ould also be explaining how inspired and motivated your ds had been and how that is in danger now. That's not a lack of encouraging resilience. We can't be resilient if we're squashed.

Punishments and public humiliation for petty nonsense only a few days in for a brand new year 7? Yes I absolutely would contact them. My dd has just started in year 7 and she’s loving it. She has HFA though goes to mainstream and masks well. She was terrified of starting secondary and it wouldn’t have taken much to turn her right off it and make it a negative experience. I would have scorched the earth if something like this had happened to her. I don’t think it should be any different for children who don’t have additional needs. An experience like this can colour everything as you can see with your son OP and I imagine in certain, already slightly disengaged kids; turn them off completely. Ridiculous overreaction.

Oh, and standing ovation for Sethis' post.

It sounds like a horrible school.

Adults who think it's OK to humiliate 11 year olds in public are bullies.

I agree with AnElderlyLady that Sethiss post was spot on.

I would let his tutor know how much this has impacted him and his motivation and outlook towards the school.

We have a very similar set up where I work and we are always actively told be be very firm with students at the beginning of term in the hope they get the message and they just stick to the rules to save being constantly pestered and given sanctions. There is a sanction for lost cards where I work or else everyone would ‘accidently’ lose theirs if they got a mark on it.

HVing said that, and I know the issue isn’t just about getting the cross in the first place, a y7 on their second day at secondary school coming out of the toilets I wouldn’t have signed their cards straight away for shirts untucked but would’ve made a comment like ‘I do hope those shirts are going to be tucked in straight away or I will have to sign your uniform card’ which would in almost every occasion make the students hurriedly tuck in their shirts (and look very nervous about getting a cross!) and they’d get the message in future they need to be a bit more careful.

A million different views here - If I were you I would approach the school but not with the "batshit" rules attitude . I would speak to his pastoral person and say simply this is what happened and now he can't understand why his friend doesn't have this cross and he does . He also gets worried that some teachers have forgotten to give him his points .I would say to him/her exactly what you have said here - about how much he was looking forward to going to the school etc . All of this can be done in a calm and pleasant worried parent manner BUT the school will think "here is a parent on alert who is not afraid to talk to us " and that is a good thing for your son . What is your objective here ? You want your son to go to school and be happy , right ? So don't say it's "batshit rules " and get on with it but also don't get into the "draconian " hype . Tread that middle path and your mission will be accomplished.

OP if you're a teacher and you feel this is wrong then it IS wrong. I'd personally let the randomness of the card points go but I'd be seeing the Headteacher about the assembly shaming.

If this was me, I would ask the school how deliberately demoralising an enthusiastic student over something so trivial is going to impact on his mental wellbeing. Downward spirals start somewhere.

Be THAT parent.

'We have a very similar set up where I work and we are always actively told be be very firm with students at the beginning of term in the hope they get the message and they just stick to the rules to save being constantly pestered and given sanctions. '

That sounds fair enough, but trouble is it's based in a fundamentally antagonistic attitude to young people - basically expecting the worst of them from the off, rather than assuming they will for the most part (like the OP's son) be keen to do well and get it right. You don't tend to get the best out of people if you treat them as the enemy* from the off.
*Only a small exaggeration.

We had them at school. Every time I got a cross, i said I lost it. When asked if it had any crosses on it, I simply said no and had a nice clean new card.

The other boy probably did that.