When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

Look at this pic of Egyptian women. Do they look like they have an issue with miniskirts

When was that photo taken? Sadly the numbers of women who are sexually assaulted in Egypt is eye-watering.

I'm not ok with it.

The origins of the burka are so obviously about misogyny and control of women that it’s a waste of time to even debate that point, but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to ban it. Many things most of us do as women, often without thinking about them, originate in misogyny. Saying we have free choice is only part of the story as we are all shaped by our environment. If we can build a more sex-equal society we will see fewer and fewer women making choices that reinforce female subjugation (and of course fewer women being coerced into such things). And I include all kinds of choices in that; I am certainly not just talking about women from religious backgrounds.

Yes your right a woman can choose to have part of her labia removed

Clitoral removal isn’t allowed and should a doctor even be correcting botched removed can find themselves in trouble yet there are Islamic scolars that claim it is Islamic to do so. Thankfully it’s unlawful in the UK as is having more than one wife

Thankfully we don’t have complete religious freedom

It’s not illegal to wear a balaclava. Daft comparison. Nor is it illegal to wear a full face helmet, sunglasses or anything else that obscures the face.

Nor should it be.

I repeat - the state has no business dictating what women can and can’t wear. Or men, for that matter.

There is nothing as oppressive to women as make up and heels. They set a horrible standard of how many people think a woman should look.

Really starzig? Really? Nothing?

I don't know when the UK became or were forced to accept the burka as "ok". I don't recall seeing it worn much in my childhood, if at all. I can only presume that those that would have worn didn't go out and so didn't need to wear it, because they never went out.

So - it's a lifestyle choice now is it? Possibly - but I'm not comfortable with seeing it in the UK, I'm not happy to see it anywhere except maybe if it's a really hot place with lots of flies so everyone would be sensible to wear one, including men.

So if more men wore burkas I could understand the reasoning more, until then, I don't.

I have notice women not wear until the marry and then start which makes me skeptical that men don't get to decide. But the state shouldn't either.

I wouldn't bother speaking to a woman wearing one but I'm sure they don't want to speak to me either. It is not the most approachable form of dress and is rejection of the West by segregating rather than integrating.

But i'm happy getting on with my life while they get on with theirs, wearing what they want.

Covering your face made sense back in the day if you lived in a very hot and dry environment, before sunscreen and sunglasses. It kept your skin from getting burned and your hair getting manky with sand/dust. Where tribes were fighting and raiding, and women were mere chattels to be abducted and/or murdered/raped. In a lawless time it was a good idea to hide away from men who weren't of your tribe/kin or risk being abducted (think of the fate of the Yazidi women).

However, its not so sensible in Kilburn High St in 2018.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed no way, FGM has more cultural than religious roots and the people who use Islam to justify it are off their heads. Removal of the labia or clitoris or whatever is not Islamic at all and has no place in the religion. It's mutilation and it's not in the Quran or Sunnah or Hadith - which means that it's not in canonical Islam at all and people have made it up and added it

And just as there are Muslim women who support it, there are those who don't. Once again, not a monolith.

Think it is a statement of the oppression of women and is sadly used to convey inequality of sexes.

There is nothing as oppressive to women as make up and heels. They set a horrible standard of how many people think a woman should look.

I wear make up and heels from when I choose to and I am not oppressed in any way. Nothing to do with the patriarchy or anything like that. My choice, just as much as the niqab or burka are choices for some women!

It’s not illegal to wear a balaclava. Daft comparison. Nor is it illegal to wear a full face helmet, sunglasses or anything else that obscures the face

Nor should it be

I repeat - the state has no business dictating what women can and can’t wear. Or men, for that matter

The countries which ban burqas ban full face coverings of any kind unless they are justified for safety reasons or protection against extreme weather.

Even in the UK anyone entering a public building wearing a balaclava or other full facecovering (except a burqa) will be asked to remove it.

The comparison with wearing high heels and completely covering one's face is ridiculous.

I've no idea what the statistics are on how many women choose to wear the niqab vs are forced to, although I'm sure most of us can agree that both those groups exist, but these debates remind me of the ones about prostitution/sex work that crop up on MN from time to time. Some women will always come along and say 'prostitution isn't oppressive, I'm a sex worker and I find it empowering!' and point to all these Medium articles titled Why Sex-Positive Feminists Should Celebrate Strip Clubs or whatever. And fair play to them, they probably do genuinely choose to live that way. But it ignores the fact that most women who are forced into that situation are not in a position to write blog posts for trendy websites, or join campus feminist groups arguing for the merits of opposing cultural mores. They are confined indoors or constantly watched over, have no financial freedom, social connections or ability to access help and in many cases speak very little English - how are they ever going to get their feelings and experiences across to wider society in the same way that the 'it's so empowering!' crowd can?.

I remember hearing Yasmine Mohammed, an ex-Muslim activist born in Canada, saying she was almost too afraid to go to hospital when her baby was dying because her husband was out and she was forbidden to leave the house without him. Eventually she called her mother to accompany her, because she didn't dare go out by herself for fear of being beaten or killed. How many of these women are living in our communities that we don't know about, because they're completely hidden from our view - not just from 'woke white middle-class Western feminists', as someone said upthread, but from more liberal Muslims too? It's really hard to say, and I don't think we're going to get any closer to the answer by listening solely to the women who have a voice and can tell the world that they're making a free choice.

It may not be in the Koran but it is supported by a large enough number of Islamic scholars (and sects of a few Christians) and not mentioned in the teachings? well that is what is debatable

Along with full veil covering

Should all religious practices be supported because it what people feel is the right thing to do

I don’t have anything against the women doing it, but I don’t think it’s a choice made in a vacuum and it stems from a patriarchal religion/culture. So yeah, not keen, but better than women feeling unable to leave the house because the state has banned it.

So many women still live in “Purdah” in the uk and are barely allowed to leave their house. The cultural customs of some of the Subcontinent’s rural societies have been brought across wholesale and are alive and well - certainly in many the former mill towns of the north of England that I am aware of, including Purdah. It’s very sad - it does not lead to effective integration and is certainly not empowering for the women.

Any Islamic scholar that advocates clitoral removal is an idiot. Show me one and I'll personally put it all over my social media what a misogynistic twisted prick he is.

Wearing niqaab and wearing make up and heels aren't actually mutually exclusive..

In the community in London I live in I've met many Muslim women that have been oppressed. Through domestic violence, oppressive in laws, having cock lodging husbands etc. So many that I started an organisation that does outreach, advocacy and support work.
I also know many women that wear niqaab. And as part of the community have probably more access to these women then most.
I can honestly say that niqaab wearing hasn't been a factor in determining oppression. Out of all the women we've supported I think only 1 wore niqaab. And yes after she left her addict husband she took it off. However she never mentioned wearing it as she was forced. It's just like many women after divorce have a change of look etc.
In fact in my experience it is the opposite. It is the ones that are educated, independent, and go out to work or study that wear niqaab. You have to be quite assertive and tough skinned to wear it.

I grew up in the 80’s & just accepted that some people of different religions wore different clothing. I barely gave it a second thought.

The concept of arranged marriage which was common then always made me feel sad but ultimately unless it was forced I felt it was none of my business.

I think banning any item of clothing is treading a precarious route.

Even in the UK anyone entering a public building wearing a balaclava or other full facecovering (except a burqa) will be asked to remove it

Why not the burka?

Why does my 13 year old Ds in a hoodie pose more of a threat than a person covered from head to toe with a black sheet over their heads.

Why is there one rule for one race and another rule for another

Can I ask the ladies that wear burkas, don’t you find it restricting? Can you drive in them, ride a bike, run and play in the park with your children? Just interested how you do daily activities in them. Going out to dinner, can you take it off to eat in public?

Gin96, no one on this thread has said they wear the burqa.