When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

MamaNai

It's my personal expression of my religion. Splitting hairs really. As I said, I wear the veil and I'm a very active member of my children's school community, my local community, I have great relationships with my (non Muslim) neighbours. I volunteer for an organisation and help women from all walks of life and my veil has never, ever been a barrier. It's really only a problem if people make it one. If I'm asked to lift it for security then I do so. I don't have it on in my passport or driving licence photos. There's a lot of hoo ha about nothing to be honest.

@ Havana how do you know people reading this thread don’t wear the burka? Just curious how women negotiate their day wearing one?

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed NEITHER the burqa nor FGM are in Islamic teachings. I'm sure you can pull up a webpage or some bullshit sheikh saying they are but as someone who has studied the religion in detail as well as practised it, it's not within the bounds of the religion that I follow. Much like ISIS

@nailak what's the organisation? Do you take volunteers?

Gin96, the number of women who wear the burqa is microscopic in European countries. 0.01% of French Muslim women wear the burqa (0.00058% of the general population). Which is a couple of hundred of women.

It's likely to be the same in the UK. I think the chances of a burqa wearing women reading this thread are miniscule.

nailak i completely agree with you.

I know three muslim sisters, all teens. The eldest wears a niqab, the middle sister doesn’t cover her hair or face at all, the younger wears the hijab. Their parents clearly gave them free choice and they happen to have made different choices. I’m not saying I like the niqab and I agree it’s roots are misogynistic but I feel the same way about stiletto heels. I wouldn’t try and stop someone else wearing them if they want to even if I think the cultural forces that make them want to wear them are rooted in the patriarchy.

Even in the UK anyone entering a public building wearing a balaclava or other full facecovering (except a burqa) will be asked to remove it

Why not the burka?

Why does my 13 year old Ds in a hoodie pose more of a threat than a person covered from head to toe with a black sheet over their heads.

A hoodie is not a face covering so not comparable to a burqa. And women who veil their faces (burqa/niqaab) ARE required to remove their veil for security/identification purposes e.g. at airport security. They'll be allowed to do it in a private room though.

Why is there one rule for one race and another rule for another?

I thought your type of person argues Islam is not a race therefore you can't be racist to Muslims? Funny how Muslims are suddenly a race when it suits your agenda.

Try to stop it and it will be more attractive.

I see a fashion for teen girls to wear tight jeans and tshirts and a long scarf that falls down the back. Hair hidden but bum and boob clearly on show. Defeats the purpose.

Well that is what is debatable isn’t it

You can tap into google the Islamic scolars that support full veil cover and removal of female genitalia and will find some that support it and attach it to Islamic teachings (and a few Christian ones)

And of course those that don’t and condem it

That is the issue with religion is that it is wide open to interpretation if it wasn’t their wouldn’t be the separate fractions within

Or we can pretend that every religious scholar/preacher/imam/bishop/rabbi/nun person of religious authority and influence has nothing but goodness in their heart

@gin96. Re the eating, I think they just lift the face covering up for each mouthful, it’s actually quite dextrous!

That is the issue with religion is that it is wide open to interpretation if it wasn’t their wouldn’t be the separate fractions within

Enthusiasm - there is nothing in Islam that condones or encourages FGM. There's nothing in the Quran or the Hadith that is open to interpretation on this subject. Nothing, nada, zilch. So don't blame religion.

There's an old but true saying:

'Don"t judge Islam by Muslims. Judge Muslims by Islam.'

there is nothing in Islam that condones or encourages FGM. There's nothing in the Quran or the Hadith that is open to interpretation on this subject. Nothing, nada, zilch. So don't blame religion.

Pretty sure the Burkha's not in there either.......

Again that has been open to interpretation

That’s isn’t down to me is it it’s down to those who have religious influence take it up with them

It's a shame the authors of the Quran didn't have the foresight to forbid FGM, but I guess no-one is perfect.

I don’t think you can totally separate juding people and religion when religion has such an influence and people have influence over religion due to interpretation but I am judgemental of the Abrahamic religions

There is nothing in the Bible that allows the sexual abuse of children yet many catholic priests have done so and no doubt used the religion to create more fear and power - are they still catholic absolutely are they good honest Catholics obviously not

I don’t believe religion is the cause of wars or spread of hatred that is humans but religions certainly creates divisions and is used to create fear and gain power. Religious people as much as non believes are a mix of good and bad

@asleepallday pm me
@Havaina some have said they wear niqaab, but with the hostility I guess they've gone.
@gin96 I wear abayah, not niqaab and manage to do many activities wearing it. It doesn't stop me running and playing with kids. I've even done football coaching sessions wearing it and so on.
Niqaab is just a face covering, so the same way wearing a scarf over your nose and mouth wouldn't stop you driving etc, niqaab wouldn't either. I know women that wear niqaab that drive.
When we go out to eat some of them take it off and sit in a place they're not too much in view, some of them eat under it. If we are going out with those we know don't want to take it off we go to a restaurant with a private room.
@enthusiasmisdisturbed I genuinely don't know any scholar who has advocated clitoral removal. I've already said show me them and I'll speak out against them and warn people not to follow them.
@DontBoreMe the Quran refers to jilbaabs. Obviously this is an Arabic term. There are differences of opinions on the exact meaning of this term. In addition to this there are hadith about the wives of the Prophet covering their faces.
@BartholinsSister actually there are hadith stating that cutting of the clitoris and labia is not good. The Quran is not a comprehensive book of laws. It does include some laws, but it also sets out general principles and beliefs which are expanded on by hadith. Such as the times we pray and the Method is known from hadith, the Quran refers to the prayers and timings but not in detail.
@asaprofessionalfeko defeats who's purpose? Some wear hijab because they see it as part of their cultural identity or for fashion reasons. Why do you need to decide the purpose of other women's dress?
@OliversMumsArmy what race is that then? I know as many British born white ladies, African ladies and carribean ladies that wear niqaab as I do Asians. Where does race come in to it?
And maybe because more teenagers in hoodies have actually committed real crimes then women wearing niqaab?

And what is all this burka business. I've never seen anyone in the UK wearing a burka. The only pictures I've seen or burkas is in Afghanistan. I've never seen women in other countries wearing burka.

This is a post I wrote on Facebook a couple of months ago, expanding on the security risk point:

I've worked and interacted with many women in niqaab. Many who I'm proud to call my friends and colleagues.
Asking if women in niqaab are oppressed is like asking if women that wear cardigans are oppressed.
It's nonsensical.
They're just like anyone else.
Some of them are timid and shy.
Some of them are bubbly.
Some of them are feisty.
Some of them are dominating and definitely wear the trousers in their relationships.

Are they a security risk?
What, more of a risk then the drug dealers on every street corner?
The opportunists waiting by cash machines?
The begging gangs?
The pimps that have girls on our streets as soon as it gets dark?
The youth on mopeds and BMXs?

Our community has real problems.
We have an epidemic of youth violence. Our children are stabbing and killing each other. A 13 year old was killed in my local park. We have youths terrorising neighbourhoods, and a rise in acid attacks.

We have an epidemic of visible slavery and people trafficking, in the form of prostitution and begging gangs.

We have an epidemic of home invasions, in Clayhall children are being tied up and threatened with hammers. CCTV is not capturing the attackers faces as they are wearing hoodies and bandanas.

We have an epidemic of children being groomed by gangs into becoming drug dealers. We personally know a 13 year old, from London, arrested in a crack house inanother city for dealing.

We have hundreds of homeless families and individuals actually living in car parks and shopping centres.

We have an epidemic of poverty with hundreds of families relying on food banks to feed their children.

We have an epidemic of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, gambling.

We have an epidemic of mental health issues in adults and children alike.

Yet we want to spend time discussing the niqaab? Is it really that important? Does it really threaten our way of life or security more then the above issues? Does it really warrant so many column inches and so much airtime?The niqaab is a non issue.
This whole debate is nothing but a distraction. To keep people from contemplating and discussing and tackling the real issues.

And the distraction is never an accident. It's calculated. They knew the consequences and they wanted them to occur.

Patriarchal tool of oppression, done so well women now praise it as a choice to wear it

^This

Nailed it on page one

Like slut walk then?

Whataboutery weakens an argument I think.

Enthusiasm

Again that has been open to interpretation

What has? Are up being deliberately vague?

That’s isn’t down to me is it

What isn't down to you?

it’s down to those who have religious influence take it up with them

What is down to them and what should I take up with them?

The message of slut walk is ‘we should be allowed to wear what we like without being raped or beaten’

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on this thread advocating rape or beatings as a punishment for wearing a burka or niqaab. So I’m not sure what point you are making, really.

Face coverings in public should be illegal in the UK. Balaclavas, motorcycle helmets, Burkas etc. In a civilised western country it is just so many kinds of wrong to hide your face.

Pretty sure the Burkha's not in there either

No, it's but it still shouldn't be up to me or you to ban women from wearing them. You'll be hard pressed to find women burqa wearing women in the UK, let alone those who have been forced to wear it.