When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

Have I'm not saying wearing the burka etc is the only thing which causes insecurities, down be a prat about it. I'm pretty sure growing up as a second citizen doesn't help either!

Then what are you saying? You can't even articulate what you mean and yet I'm the prat? 🙄

And calling Muslim women second class citizens is extremely offensive, shame on you. It doesn't surprise me coming from you, you're drawn like a moth to a flame to anti- Muslim threads.

Article in the guardian today

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/16/new-radicals-2018-raise-your-gaze-muslim-feminists-mosque

Hav ha ha, yes I am, probably from my time living in the Middle East! 😉

As a Catholic child growing up in the 60s and 70s, every May and June we were dressed as brides of Christ and paraded around the streets

When I posted I wasn’t just thinking about the U.K, I also had in mind Afghanistan under the Taliban.

If a women chooses the burka then good on her, but I suspect many aren’t/weren’t exercising a real choice but following rules, or social pressure.

And I was not referring to headscarves, as has been talked about. But full face coverings.

Anti - but I bet you wanted people to look at you though!

Having no choice is horrible - being hassled by morals police if you have some hair showing (when they are having a clampdown) is degrading and scary. To force the majority of women who don't want to cover their bodies and hair is abuse.

Everyone assumes it's a woman under a burqa, but in this day and age it's hard to tell exactly who is following us into women only spaces.

We don’t have a dress code here because we are a liberal country

I would have to disagree about all the country is quite so liberal as you think.

Mard you work in an office. I worked outside running what would considered to be a very male job. How would you wear a burka climbing ladders or crawling into small places. How do the women who do physical work out doors cope with covering up?

Anti - curious where is the UK does that takes place?

If you want to know what Muslim women think about these things then just ask us.

We would if we weren't dissuaded by the Burkha.....

I know what some think. Most of my family are now, or have been in their past, obliged to cover up by men in power and this is inforced by men in power. You can be hassled, beaten up or arrested if you don't comply. Women have just disappeared for appearing in public or social media without a headscarf - oh the immorality!

What's 'immoral' is to enforce your religion on other people (who had a perfectly good one of their own thank you very much) and the dress rules of your own culture whether they like it or not. And yes, I know that humans have been doing this to each other since we started walking upright.

The burka is OK as long as a mini is okay. It's called personal choice.

Yes some may not have the choice to wear a burka but have you ever realised that some western fashion dressed women also don't have a choice, ie the male in their lives make them wear tarty clothes or conversely long skirts. This has been recognised and written about and is just as likely as a women having no personal choice but to wear a burka .

How many people do something about this?

I have no problems with anything if that is the individual fashion choice ladies, but to say when did the burka become OK is disingenuous at best?

@Moominfan

"Patriarchal tool of oppression, done so well women now praise it as a choice to wear it."

Completely agree.

None is saying A is good, B is bad though. I can't say I've ever come across a woman whose man has said 'you, get out of those jeans and put this g-string on now! Uncover those tits!'

) Yet burka wearers in western countries stick out like a sore thumb

it’s the same in many ME countries where women who wear a Burka are still very much in the minority.

And let's not forget that many Muslim women can be just as rebellious.

I've seen a massive take up in the wearing of niqab, hijab and burka, done in the sense of sticking two fingers up to western fashion ideals. And why not, they are using their right to choose their clothes in that way.

Have anyone asked why they feel the need and actively want to turn their backs on western fashion ideals? Maybe it was because they were actively marginalised and forgotten about, in equal measures.

The same with black woman reclaiming natural hair wearing. Maybe it is their way of saying enough is enough. We are not fully accepted anyway.

If you don't accept them when in jeans and a t shirt, why not wear their own religious and cultural clothing? It's even more attractive when it is making a statement.

Of course many wear it because they want to religiously, some may be forced and some may not care either way.

Yet burka wearers in western countries stick out like a sore thumb this is kind of what grandma used to say.

The point of wearing the chador was so that you didn't stand out, hence she wouldn't dream.of wearing one on visits to the UK.

Have Muslim women been marginalised? I can't say it's been something in my circle. These women have moved halfway across the world and jumped into society - not standing separate from it.

I also honestly don't understand how you can build a meaningful relationship with someone with no visible body language (Burkha)

It’s entirely possible.

Why don't blokes wear them and just women?

Let’s not dick about, there is no doubt that the burka is used to oppress women. Sure wine can choose to be oppressed but is that really a choice if their own making? Of course not! If it’s not about oppressing women then why do men never wear one?

It also doesn’t fit into uk culture, as much as wearing a short skirt doesn’t fit into the culture of Muslim cultures.

As a country we need to set standards, not lower it by saying all standards accepted.

1, women should not have their clothes legislated. Why should the state control what a woman can and can’t wear, if it is her free will to wear it?

2, what should be legislated for is the forcible wearing of any garment. Someone should not be able to force another human being to wear a specific item of clothing unless required for work/safety.

Why should the state control what a woman can and can’t wear, if it is her free will to wear it?

Tried going shopping in a balaclava recently?

The state does control how we live we are not totally free

Can you or I walk about in skimpy underwear no. Can extreme religious doctorine be overlooked and women who choose to have part of their genitalia removed no. Can a man have more than one wife even if they all consent to this no

So laws are in place to restrict us. I can’t see a total ban which would backfire as we would create martyrdom but I hope and I do not think we shall see women in public roles education, law, medicine, public office wearing a niqab/burka

I can remember in my 20s when winters were colder than they are now going out muffled up in a woolly hat and a scarf covering most of my face. Should that be banned?

@DontBoreMe there's Muslim women in this thread, that have been responding. Has their dress stopped you from asking them?
@OliversMumsArmy I've done siphoning and stuff wearing an abayah, climbed the 02 etc, but if we're talking about niqaab, then niqaab doesn't really stop movement etc, it just covers the face.

@zippey, again with the homogenous Muslims are all one culture thing. Yes in many Muslim countries you will find women wearing mini skirts. As I've already pointed out you can go to Turkey or Egypt and wear what you want, including a bikini.

And yes in the West women can choose to have part of their genitals removed. It is called labiaplasty.