When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

it’s ironic that woke,white,middle class western feminists like to preach that the burka is a choice and a freedom. They, as feminists, want to encourage something which clearly and very obviously leaves the wearer both anonymised and invisible. That’s quite messed up.

It's not "white saviour" syndrome to feel people shouldn't be wearing burkas. Wearing burkas in a western country is a clear self- identifying sign of separateness, non-integration, religious extremism and being a follower of dogma. Its not some cool sign of empowerment. It's often no surprise that the communities where people have retreated into Islamic dress over the last 30 years are often amongst the most economically deprived in the country. The attitudes of an inward looking, closed community village have been adopted by many and I believe in some ways these attitudes have led to a long term decline of these communities. Many are not welcoming to outsiders or non believers. It is with sadness that many have noted that the original immigrant generations of muslims who came over in the 60s have ended up integrating in some ways better than their daughters and grandchildren who feel the need to go backwards and are intent on aping a medieval anti-democratic culture and singing the praises of a ludicrous religion. "It pleases God for me to wear a burka" ?! Sorry, the only reaction to that is to tell that person to get their head examined and move out of the 13th century.

I agree AsleepAllDay, I remember in the 90s when the rise of the Taliban, that women were suddenly required to wear the Burka or suffer serious repercussions. I remember reading an article about it at the time. Ok some women say it's their choice to wear it, but it is not for all women, for a lot of them, it is imposed or expected that they wear it by the men in their lives.

*I actually really don't like the principles and ideology behind the burka (and other full body type coverings) but I recognise that is different from the day to day cultural lived experience for a very many women, and totally respect their right to wear it. I certainly don't have any right to tell them how to live or what to wear.

I find the idea that women should bear responsibility for men's sexual desire and behaviour pretty objectionable though.*

^
This.
Pressure to conform in any culture is very powerful, there are dozens of unspoken rules which we all internalise and enact.

Other assorted thoughts...
Facial and full body covering restricts communication. There are varying estimates of the percentage of communication relating to body language and facial expression, but it's larger than that for spoken language.
In trying to empathise with women who want to wear burka and hijab, clothing that reduces communication and confers a degree of anonymity, I sometimes fantasise about wearing a burka going about in a city....I imagine that it would make me anonymous and apart in a way that I have never experienced.. and I can get that it saves an awful lot of unwanted interaction.

Finally, as a person with some hearing loss, (loud rock music) I rely on lip reading and facial expression quite a lot and wonder what happens when someone in a burka needs to communicate with a deaf person, or is deaf herself?

We don’t have a dress code here because we are a liberal country.

However when people say all women in this country who wear a burqua or niquab , wear it out of choice, I think that is a bit of an assumption really.
One of my friends wore a niquab , while it was her choice at the time , her then husband wanted her to wear it. After a quick Islamic divorce it was removed.
My SIL wears a burqua. At first I thought it was just a niquab however when I went shopping with BIL and her I was very surprised to see her clinging to his back despite being very modest person. I was standing right in front of her and she asked BiL where I was. Her niquab has an extra flap which obscures her eyes.
She is newly married and just 18 and BIL is 34. While she is happy wearing it I’m 100 % sure if he told her to stop wearing atleast the eye flap she would. I suspect the whole garment is a kind of sexual fantasy. A women only to be viewed by him.

The issue with women wearing it after marriage is that there is a power imbalance. It is very easy to divorce a women Islamically. Also a divorced women in many Islamic countries is seen as very shameful and will unlikely ever to het married again
She will most likely have to spend the rest of her life living with her parents.
I would not like a ban in this country. I think in France it as seen as an attack on Islam. However I would like people to acknowledge it is not always a free choice, even in this country.

I've not "become OK" with it. I think it's a nasty piece of apparel, can be intimidating & that women are trying to convince themselves they're wearing it of their own volition.

Unfortunately it's become fashionable to point a finger & cry "racist", "Daily Mail Reader" etc at anyone that dares to express that opinion.

it’s ironic that woke,white,middle class western feminists like to preach that the burka is a choice and a freedom.

It's also ironic that these same women will be the first to claim that women doing nude modelling, "grid girls" etc are oppressed and brainwashed and are being exploited rather than saying it is these womens choice and their decision to wear skimpy clothing.

When I see a woman in a niqab I don't see them as oppressed. Nowadays I assume they are wearing it more as a symbol of their allegiance to political Islam and as a sort of snub to Western society and culture. I also wonder what beliefs and attitudes women who wear the niqab have towards homosexuals, Jews, Hindus, apostates, women who wear skimpy clothes etc. Are they as respectful and believe in the rights of these people to practice their way of life as they think people should be of their right to wear the niqab?

Some men force women to wear certain clothes. They are the problem.

They are the problem whether it is religious dress, revealing clothing, not being allowed to wear trousers etc.

No one ever seems concerned for the girl who's boyfriend wants her to wear only short skirts or no underwear or any other clothing combination that doesn't cover someone up.

Some very interesting thoughts on this, I agree wholeheartedly with the more recent comments on here. I agree Blurredspeech with your comment, very interesting points about wearing the Niquab and Burka as a sign of alligance to Islam. What are their views on Western ideals, hmmmm.

Are they as respectful and believe in the rights of these people to practice their way of life as they think people should be of their right to wear the niqab?

This is a very good point. I'm afraid that my (personal) feeling is that people that wear these items are more blinkered & less accepting of other people's life decisions than those that don't.

I also honestly don't understand how you can build a meaningful relationship with someone with no visible body language (Burkha).

A ‘ choice’ that they might not have been physically forced to wear but still a sign of opression. And even the Muslims I speak to say it says nowhere in their religion that they dhould cover their faces and most of them wouldn’t do it.

papayasareyum

Totally agree some just seem to be tripping over themselves to claim this is a positive move as it gives women a choice

Some women support and encourage and have made the decision to have part of their genitalia removed, some women are happy to be married to a man who has a few wives

Do we allow all choices that are made from extreme religious doctrine to be allowed because it’s a choice or do we make the choices for the greater good for progression as we know many do not have that choice and it’s creates division in society

A lot of women who wear it are pushed into it by fathers, family and husbands. You see plenty of men in short sleeves and a woman totally covered and even wearing gloves!

I don't support it, I don't like it and find the burka a non issue that takes up a lot of political space.

I work in an office in the Middle East, and out of around 200 women in the company, there are 4 Christians, 3 Hindus, and the rest Muslim from multiple countries around the world, so many different cultures.

One of our directors wears a niqab. The lack of seeing her face doesn’t matter - once you get past any uneasiness (yes, many people are uneasy at first, even other Muslim ladies), the argument of needing to read people’s expressions is rubbished. You notice her eyes, her vocal expressions, body language, just the same as you do with anyone without a niqab.

I recall one conversation with her and one of the ladies wearing a hijab asked her why she wears it. She said her family were extremely conservative and it was always expected. However, she said it takes away so many social pressures such as perfect clothing, skin, hair, and the need to feel ‘put together’ every day. In her opinion, it would put everyone on a level playing field (pretty/plain/overweight/thin/value of clothes) and if it took those sorts of pressures away from young girls, it could be seen as a very positive thing. She says she’s a very insecure person and it allows her the confidence to be herself without worrying about the usual appearance issues most women worry about.

Mard I wonder if her insecurities steam from her upbringing? And wearing the niqab?

I think that if we banned the burka then women who wear it, through choice or otherwise, may end up even more marginalised, as they may end up or leaving their homes.
This is only my opinion and is not meant to insult anyone. I know little about Islam and wouldn't want to be seen as rude about something I know nothing about.

Mard I wonder if her insecurities steam from her upbringing? And wearing the niqab?

Then 90% of Mumsnetters must have had the sort of upbringing, as so, so many are insecure and lack confidence.

However, she said it takes away so many social pressures such as perfect clothing, skin, hair, and the need to feel ‘put together’ every day. In her opinion, it would put everyone on a level playing field (pretty/plain/overweight/thin/value of clothes)

If that's the case, men should wear it too so they don't have to worry about being objectified by women when they are out strolling in their shorts and flip flops and can feel more pious and closer to their god.

Also, you don't need to go to the extreme of wearing a burka to reject social pressures, there are plenty of women who wear normal western clothing (not too skimpy and not too conservative) who are strong enough to reject any apparent "social pressures" by just not wearing makeup, not being thin, not bothering with the latest hair cut/fashion etc. I don't get this all or nothing attitude, it is so fake.

It's often no surprise that the communities where people have retreated into Islamic dress over the last 30 years are often amongst the most economically deprived in the country
I would say those countries that have forced women to cover up have gone backwards. For all their fancy buildings and aren’t we progressive we are letting women drive cars. It does come across as pathetic.

Underneath all of their progressive attitudes are countries living by a guy who was born in the 6th century and not separating religion from 21st century life.

It is a bit like those couples who live whole heartedly in the 1940’s or 1950’s etc There whole house, clothing, way of life is from that era whilst the world moves on without them. Lovely thing to do if you are into it but this is being forced on whole countries

Have I'm not saying wearing the burka etc is the only thing which causes insecurities, down be a prat about it. I'm pretty sure growing up as a second citizen doesn't help either!

Second class I mean!

If you want to know what Muslim women think about these things then just ask us. Rather then coming to your own conclusions based on ignorance

What are their views on Western ideals, hmmmm.

What the hell are Western ideals? Capitalist societies that constantly see women and vulnerable groups penalised for the actions of others? We're in no position to judge the values of others.

People go on about the burka a lot. I've never even seen someone wearing one. I only ever see head scarves where I am in Scotland.