When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

There is a whole world out there. If they are British i.e they were born here why is their only other choice Pakistan.

Where do you suggest they go?

I have parents from a ME country and a European country. I didn’t even consider going to either of those countries to live when I thought about emigrating.

But you're still here. When are you leaving?

No person in their right mind, in the BLAZING heat, would wonder what to wear, and then decide that swaddling themselves in layers of BLACK material from head to toe, including the face, would be the most comfortable option. No-one.

Yet again, MEN have decided what women will wear, and now, women actually believe that they have had some choice in the matter. No they fucking haven't.

If men didn't exist, neither would the Burka.

I make the move the end of this year to start a new business etc and completely move June 2020 when Ds finishes college.

Iran Afghanistan Egypt were dressing in western clothing even Saudi Arabia was more up to date than it is now

Oliversmum, you're confusing Iran with the whole of the ME

Yep. Consistently. And she’s not the only one.

Iran is a different kettle of fish anyway.

@gin96
Actually people came to the UK from the common wealth because they were invited here. After colonialism invaded their countries and took away their freedoms in their own country, and often left those countries in states of perpetual warfare.

@bustergonad you don't have to imagine. You can ask. But it seems people don't believe women's answers when they ask.
However I'm not sure where the need to understand other people's choice of dress comes in. Or why you feel the need to understand others choice of dress.
I've got friends who wear niqaab and those who wear mini skirts and everything in between. I've never thought it was my right to question them or get them to defend their choice of clothing to me.

@ohluckyme
It doesn't stop perverts. It doesn't protect from abuse or harassment.

Some women I know who wore niqaab in their twenties, now in their thirties don't. They still wear abayah and hijab though. I know lots of people who have covered and uncovered to different degrees at different times. It's just about the individual exploring what they are comfortable with.

@mandarine what has a country I've never been to and have no links to got to do with what should be allowed in the country I was born and raised in? How is it hypocrisy? The Uhygurs in China are forced to not fast and not have a beard or wear hijab, and are being forced to marry other faiths, so is it then hypocrisy if I don't cover or do marry another faith? That makes no sense.

I’m not saying any clothing should be actually banned in the UK. How are, maybe if women who claim to choose to wear a niqab actually went to live in a culture we’re this is actually forced, they might question the fundamentals of their choices and the ramifications of them?

The hijab / niqab / chador or burqa achieve absolutely nothing whatsoever. They do not make men more respectful of women - if anything it’s the total opposite and a complete farce. The part of Pakistan where I taught in, the burqa was fairly ubiquitous - except you never even saw it anyway because women never actually went outside. They are not only faceless, but effectively prisoners in their homes. Second class citizens. This is where the logic of covering leads peopled you take it to its natural conclusion. The men are literally desperate in the streets. Gawping at women as if they are some alien species. What is the actual point of any of this? It’s all ridiculous shenanigans and hysteria about nothing. Life is too short. Yes women have faces and hair too. Get over it.

My DH is British born from an Iranian background and his family were persecuted and forced to flee for their lives during the Revolution because they opposed the authorities.

There are dress codes and norms that I have internalised - heels, being size 8 or whatever, impractical dresses, make up etc - but I definitely recognise where these “norms” and pressures come from. There is no point being delusional - it’s my choice, but hardly made in a vacuum. As I say, the hijab / burqa is simply the other side of the coin - the obvious difference being that there are no societies where women are forced by law to wear heels, have Botox, etc. This is why head or face coverings will always be regarded as symbols of oppression -because for the most part this is precisely what they are.

If you think about it, all fashions and dress codes are illusions, but covering your face in 2018 has to be up there as the most ludicrous of all, along with corsets from the Victorian period or Chinese foot binding. All restrict freedom of movement and are a response to male ideals if the female and how she should look and behave. Why bother pretending anything else? Clothing has nothing to do with god. It’s has everything to do with human sexuality, and the need to repress or control this.

Why are people always using Muslim dress as a way to talk about women’s lack of choice under patriarchy? It’s just as confining to walk in uncomfortable footwear giving crippled feet halfway through the day, or subject ourselves to plastic surgery because nothing is worse than being flat chested and “undesirable”, yet nobody is posting threads asking “when did we become ok with boob jobs?”

the difference is we don’t wear the same thing for every occasion, I wouldn’t wear high heals and a long dress to ride a bike, i’d wear a tracksuit and trainers or if it’s hot shorts, t-shirt and trainers

If I go out to eat in public I don’t I have to lift a veil so I can put food in my mouth

the difference is we don’t wear the same thing for every occasion, I wouldn’t wear high heals and a long dress to ride a bike, i’d wear a tracksuit and trainers or if it’s hot shorts, t-shirt and trainers

Neither do Muslim women, Gin. When they're with their friends and family they may dress quite glamourously. And just yesterday there was an article in the Metro about a Muslim Vlogger who is a hot property in the 'modesty' fashion world. And it's not just Muslim women who wear the 'modesty' range. It's becoming increasingly popular. And Muslim women have special swimwear, sportswear, etc. They're not deprived so don't need your pity. Please don't approach visibly Muslim women out of a sense of pity, they'll be able to spot it a mile away.

I’m going on my day to day life, I ride a bike to work, I walk my dogs, I ride my horse, I go out with family for dinner, how would I do these things covered from head to toe, I wouldn’t be able to, it stops women from doing daily activities, I can’t work out why you would make life more difficult for yourselves? I go skiing with the family at Christmas, how on earth could i do that covered in a garment from head to toe?

Why are you so focused on the couple of hundred women who wear the burqa on the uk, rather than thousands upon of thousand of Muslim women who can and do all or some of the things you do?

Because this is the topic of the post?

Surely we should focus on wearing clothes that are appropriate for what we’re doing not modesty?

On holiday this year, there were Muslim men round the pool in all shapes and sizes wearing swimming trunks like all other men. The women were in kind of lightweight wetsuits with some kind of hoods or headscarf. Nothing wrong with that in a way, many women hate revealing costumes, but it did strike me that every one of them without exception looked utterly miserable. It’s even more of a ridiculous mismatch when you see women in full black cloaks and niqabs sitting round the pool somewhere like Mauritius, while the husbands are in the pool with the kids. It would be hard to dream up a more pointless set-up when you think about it. Who could be bothered really? As I said, life is to short to faff about and hide under scarves and face coverings.

Gin96, yes, but I've posted the statistics of how many actually wear the burqa and it's minuscule. All this focus on a garment rarely work on the UK is bizarre.

Surely we should focus on wearing clothes that are appropriate for what we’re doing not modesty?

But modesty versions usually are appropriate. For example, modesty swimsuits are made of the same material as those ones worn by non-Muslims to guard against the sun.

As long as a modesty swimsuit is made of the swim worthy material (lycra type), it does not hinder a Muslim woman in any way.

If you were truly advocating integration for Muslim women, you would celebrate the fact that they can participate in such activities in their own way.

Mandarine, is it possible they were miserable because you and others were staring at them? Why make them uncomfortable?

Some Muslim families choose to hire a private villa with pool so they can swim without being overlooked, some will swim in a modesty suit, some will swim in a bikini, some will hang about the pool fully dressed. I'm meh about all their choices.

I’ve looked at the modesty wear and some of it is quite nice but it’s a long way from the Niqab or burka. We’re talking about why a woman would willingly want to wear a garment that covers them from head to toe accept for their eyes? it stops you doing daily activities, it hinders your daily life, i’m Not for banning it by the way, everyone has choice but why?

Tbh, I have no problem with modesty suits round the pool at all. Good to keep out the UV. I just think the men should perhaps also be wearing long sleeve UV vests and trousers and maybe a swim cap? Who could take issue with that?

And I agree Gin, it’s the covering of the face that is beyond logic.

Gin96 - you seem unwilling to unacknowledge the rarity of burqa clad women. If you don't believe me, look up the stats yourself. Why are you so het up about a couple of hundred women who wear the burqa when compared to the 2 million or so Muslim women in the UK who don't wear it, but may or may not wear te hijab and mosesty clothing?

Tbh, I have no problem with modesty suits round the pool at all. Good to keep out the UV. I just think the men should perhaps also be wearing long sleeve UV vests and trousers and maybe a swim cap? Who could take issue with that?

But who are you to say, Mandarine? Why should Muslim men follow you and not their religion?

I was being sarcastic about men in swimming hats. There is nothing in the Quran anyway about women needing to cover their faces. What kind of god would be so petty as to require that? Faffing about pieces of cloth! It’s all about male sexuality, insecurity and the need to control. Which is actually at the heart of most religions actually. Not surprising as religions were constructed by men for the purposes of men. Why does there even need to be a Chapter in the Quran called “The Women,” in the same way as there are chapters on property and animals and how to deal with these issues, etc. Surely a religion should encompass the voices of everyone, male and female. But none do and ridiculous dress codes are just one manifestation of a wider ingrained mentality about women’s place in relation to men. The real kick is that women have internalised it all as faith.

I am not by any means any kind of MN rad fem, by the way. My husband and I have fairly traditional roles. My focus has been the DC and the family and I’m fine with that. I don’t feel the need to emulate men and I do believe, in a very general level, there are some innate differences between the sexes. I just don’t buy the argument that face covering could have anything to do with a meaningful religion and I can’t inderstand why people can’t just see it for what it is, like Chinese foot binding or Victorian corsetry (but at least they didn’t try and make out it was all for god).