When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

Everything changed virtually overnight and the rest of the ME followed.

not true.

It happened fast in Iran. Shot a lot of people and women thrown under a blanket. Not sure about the rest of the ME to be honest.

I remember seeing them in London in the 80s when I was quite a little girl, (6/7) when they were exclusively worn by tourists or temporary residents (for example diplomatic staff), they were only ever seen in tourist spots, ones particularly for the rich especially so. Bond Street, British Museum and Kensington were particular hot spots. It was a particular type called a yashmak which was a face covering showing only the eyes which led directly into a flowing robe. Always black. Only ever seen on women from a few Arab gulf states, mainly Saudis. Never Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Iraqi or Iranian or Afghani women which were or had recently been a bit more progressive in those days. It was understood that they were forced to wear it by a highly patriarchal society which forced them to wear it.

Never saw a face covering outside London until the 00s. and don’t believe I saw what I thought was a permanent London resident until about the same time. They do and they don’t bother me at the same time. I went to Uni in the early 00s when the hijab was becoming popular. I know Muslim friends who chose to adopt it out of free choice. Partly because there was a trend towards more conservative Islam including among the young, but because this was around the time of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and frequently their Islam was becoming more political and they were identifying more with the places and cultures their families originally came from. Those women were often involved with very mainstream political action like ‘Stop the War’ and it was a genuine thoughtful decision often motivated by a genuine desire to wear an outward expression of their religion.

I’m still friends with some of these women and have spoken to them about full face coverings (which none of them wear). I understand in some UK communities (Bangladeshi and some Arab in particular) it is still not a free choice for women to wear it. Increasingly though it seems like young women, in particular young Pakistani women, are wearing it through their own free choice because they follow, and want to signal they follow, an ultra Conservative form of Islam which is anti-integration and often not compatible with British values.

That does worry me, but I’m against ‘banning the burka’ because I think singling out religious groups or women is dangerous. But if a genuine security issue arose and it could be proven allowing face coverings facilitated terror or crime then I’d support a ban on face covering in public but that would include using scarves (football hooligans and EDL do this) to obscure the bottom of your face, balaclavas and motorcycle helmets off the bike, it wouldn’t just be ‘ban the burka’.

I will accept the choice to wear a burqa or niqab just as soon as I can go to Afghanistan and walk down the street in clothes of my “choice” and not be uncomfortable / approached by authorities. It has to work both ways, surely. Anything else is utter hypocrisy.

Yes a burqa is a choice, but it’s a delusional choice. Just as I have internalised that my decision to wear make-up, heels, etc is a choice, or freedom of expression. We’re all sleepwalking in this sense. Hijabs, etc are simply the other side of the coin. The fact is, it shouldn’t matter what women wear or don’t wear, in the same way as it doesn’t matter what men wear. All this nonsense about pieces of cloth and whether they cover the head or face. Utterly meaningless, in my view. How can any clothes make you closer to god? Surely faith runs deeper than this? Any form of head / face covering is nothing more than an outward gimmick and ultimately meaningless, just like make up or any other dress code. I have spent time in NW Pakistan and frankly life is complicated enough without such additional layers of imposed nonsense about covering up.

I will accept the choice to wear a burqa or niqab just as soon as I can go to Afghanistan and walk down the street in clothes of my “choice” and not be uncomfortable / approached by authorities. It has to work both ways, surely. Anything else is utter hypocrisy.

No it’s not. Are you actually saying you want to live in a society like Iran where you or me or any woman can be harassed just for not wearing the right sort of clothing? What would be hypocritical would be if we looked at societies like that and said how awful it was women were oprressed there and had so few rights, then as a tit for tat retaliation we responded by doing exactly the same by using social pressure or legislation to repress women in this country and reduce their choices.

I could walk down my windy rainy local high street in a bikini or a burka right now if I wanted and the only state interference I would have from the state would probably be an inquiry from a PSCO if I was feeling quite well or required the loan of a coat. Unless there is a genuine pressing need to limit those freedoms I don’t want them limiting.

Wow I have just read the rule on women in Afghanistan under the Taliban en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

That’s quite an interesting read. It says the Taliban’s belief was based in Pathun cultural practice of Purdah rather than Islam. But I think it was much more intertwined with an interpretation of Islam than that article suggests.

I don’t think the Muslim women who are new to the West see the history of feminism in Europe, equality in law /voting only in just the last 100 years,a few Centuries back women weren’t allowed to own property.Women burned as witches. Arranged marriage for Aristocracy. Marriage ceremony’s have a best man because in medieval Germany different groups used to kidnap a girl/women and marry her against her will and the best man fought off her relatives. Etc etc the list goes on. You can’t help applying that viewpoint of history when you see women from another culture-with the ‘who do these rules benefit ‘ lense...hmmm women or perhaps (no!) men? ... Clothing that covers your mouth, I see it saying ‘you have no voice’ but each to their own I wouldn’t ban it.
I employ Muslim students and one guy from Pakistan said to me ‘of course women are less intelligent than men’ to me (his boss!)I think it’s the attitudes of the Western dressed Muslim men we should be addressing.

young Pakistani women, are wearing it through their own free choice because they follow, and want to signal they follow, an ultra Conservative form of Islam which is anti-integration and often not compatible with British values

So why do they stay. The UK doesn’t have a ban on travel. No one is keeping them here. Why stay in a country you don’t want to intergrate into.

Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, even Saudi Arabia (I am going on memory)in the 1970s were a lot more free in their dress code.

No one was forced to cover up. The young girls and women wore mini skirts and pretty much what they liked.

After the Shah of Iran was ousted in 1979 then it all changed. Ayatollah Khomeni took over Iran and blanketed all the women then it does look like the rest of the ME followed.

Snowbear

You are talking about a 100 year struggle for women’s rights.

What happened in the Iran was women’s rights being erased overnight. Followed by Afghanistan and the rest

Gerard - no of course I’m not saying other societies should emulate the Taliban. I’m just more for common sense. Dress it up as modesty, free choice, religious expression, whatever you like, but the bottom line is, we all know what the niqab represents, within a historical context, for women across the world. It’s women as “other”, women as objects who must guard their modesty, etc, etc. This is inherent in all religions and most cultures and the niqab is a blatant symbol of it. It doesn't really matter that an individual woman’s husband or family are not forcing you to wear it - that fact that it is a symbol of oppression for so many should be enough. Faith is not something that needs to be worn like a badge. When I travelled around the ME, it just stuck me that all this covering from men and the various associated repercussions just hamper everyone’s life. It’s just an unnecessary waste of focus, effort and time that could be better put to use doing something actually useful.

So why do they stay. The UK doesn’t have a ban on travel. No one is keeping them here. Why stay in a country you don’t want to intergrate into.

Because it's their home? Because the vast majority are born here?

When was the last time you reached out to a Muslim to help them 'integrate'?

Why is the onus on a Muslim to become like you?

And I don't agree with the poster you are responding to, imo, most women who wear hijab do so through their own relationship with their God.

And some may wear it as a fashionable statement but that's their right too.

*why do they stay. The UK doesn’t have a ban on travel. No one is keeping them here. Why stay in a country you don’t want to intergrate into.

Because it's their home? Because the vast majority are born here?

When was the last time you reached out to a Muslim to help them 'integrate*

I was born in the UK. Although saying it is my home is not how I feel.

Never really felt at home ever.

I am moving abroad because I can’t stand the weather. Just because you were born in a certain country does not mean you have to stay if you don’t like it.

I actually have quite a number of Muslim friends.

Might be difficult to reach out to someone with their mouth covered though as I am slightly deaf and need to see someone’s lips move.

Havaina This has absolutely nothing to do with integration.

Any women in Britain is permitted to wear a Burkha. Some of us agree with it some of us don't but whatever our individual opinions happen to be, women are allowed to wear whatever they choose.
If people come to this country it is only normal and understandable that they will bring their cultures and it's practices with them.
The Burkha is symbolic of a vile, medieval, misogynistic regime where women are treated like complete and utter dirt. Why, in the name of sanity would any woman want to be associated with something so extreme and bizarre? because they are in a minority of women who firmly believe that men are superior and to be served and obeyed.
There are many women in the world who do not want equality in any way.

I am moving abroad because I can’t stand the weather. Just because you were born in a certain country does not mean you have to stay if you don’t like it.

I actually have quite a number of Muslim friends.

Yes, but that's you, OP. Many people, including Muslims, want to live near their family and friends. They can still love their country (the UK) and be frustrated by elements of it.

Might be difficult to reach out to someone with their mouth covered though as I am slightly deaf and need to see someone’s lips move.

Muslim women who wear niqab don't tend to cover their face when only around women. So this should be no inhibitor for friendship. And you have Muslim friends, that tells you Muslims do integrate.

The Burkha is symbolic of a vile, medieval, misogynistic regime where women are treated like complete and utter dirt.

I've posted some statistics up thread about the number of women who wear burqas. In France, which has more Muslims, it's estimated to be 0.0058% of the population (so couple of hundred women). And it's likely to be the same for the UK. The number of women who wear the burqa is extremely rare. All these navel gazing about something that is hardly worn in the UK is bizarre.

Why, in the name of sanity would any woman want to be associated with something so extreme and bizarre? because they are in a minority of women who firmly believe that men are superior and to be served and obeyed.

When you ignore the voices of Muslim women saying they wear it for themselves, and for their relationship with God, then you become just like those that view males superior - because you don't think these Muslim women have the intelligence to speak for themselves, and you think you have the right to speak for them.

that fact that it is a symbol of oppression for so many should be enough. Faith is not something that needs to be worn like a badge

Changed username slightly but same poster. Just decided to change because people keep thinking I’m a man and I’d misspelt Steven Gerrard’s name.

That gets us into a bit of a circular argument because it gets into the area of rejecting the oppression of women by creating more of it and doing the same thing. Somebody from the ME might well make the same argument about western women’s revealing clothing. That it is an overt symbol of our sexualisation and objectification to be sold as commodities in a Western capitalist society via the media and showed our lack of moral and spiritual life so they are right to ban it. I know that some in the ME do argue that their women are respected and protected and see western women as unprotected and open to sexual harrasment, assault etc.

It’s two sides of the same coin. Both you and they would be insisting that your moral viewpoint was correct and should therefore be enforced by telling women what they can and can’t wear.

We don’t do that. All of the major British political parties have been very clear on this - we don’t tell women what to wear. We have a culture of women wearing what they want. The woman decides. She may have input from family or friends or cultural expectation (we all do) but ultimately the choice of what to wear is nobody but that woman’s. It’s not the government, it’s not strangers who object to the woman who choose, it’s always ultimately the woman herself. Be that a bikini or a burka.

Well said, Geraldine.

We have a British tradition of tolerating what's reasonable. What happens in other countries shouldn't erode our own tolerance.

The vast majority of Muslim men and women find the Burkha abhorrent.

In the name of tolerance would it be acceptable to wear a Nazi uniform at work or whilst shopping in Tesco? Of course it wouldn't because it would remind people of the atrocities of war.
This isn't about tolerance or intolerance. It's about wearing something that was enforced by men on women under a vile and murderous regime. This has nothing to do with being closer to Allah! No god would want that barbaric life for any woman. There is nothing remotely tolerant about wearing a Burkha!

So why do they stay. The UK doesn’t have a ban on travel. No one is keeping them here. Why stay in a country you don’t want to intergrate into.

^^
Because there isn't much choice between UK and Pakistan really is there? Here you get to express your right to be opressed.

Geraldine, I don’t disagree with you at all about tolerance. This is the very reason I would not advocate for a ban on the burqa in the UK. However, let’s not pretend that because we tolerate something we have to agree with it or try and pretend it’s something other than it actually is. We all draw the line somewhere. I live in a Saudi. / ME area in London. I couldn’t care less about the hijab, but face any form of face covering still does make me slightly uncomfortable, even though I see it everyday. That is the truth. I have also worn a burqa as required in a certain area of Pakistan and to argue that any woman, free from religious / moral / misogynistic pressures would actually freely choose to wear this day in day out is utterly ludicrous. You can hardly see sideways (which is by design so your eyes don’t wander apparently); it’s hot; suffocating; your hair is permanently greasy and it’s dangerous crossing the road. The whole concept of it is an utter nonsense and I can’t believe anyone would even bother trying to justify it.

Here here Mandarin. Wearing a Burkha is as ridiculous as arguing the right to walk around stark naked..

Somebody from the ME might well make the same argument about western women’s revealing clothing

But prior to the 1980s the ME women wore “western women’s revealing clothes”

*So why do they stay. The UK doesn’t have a ban on travel. No one is keeping them here. Why stay in a country you don’t want to intergrate into.

^^
Because there isn't much choice between UK and Pakistan really is there? Here you get to express your right to be opressed*

There is a whole world out there. If they are British i.e they were born here why is their only other choice Pakistan.
I have parents from a ME country and a European country. I didn’t even consider going to either of those countries to live when I thought about emigrating.

In the name of tolerance would it be acceptable to wear a Nazi uniform at work or whilst shopping in Tesco?

Turkkadin - catch my nuance - I said tolerating what's 'reaosnable'. Nazi uniform is not reasonable.

This isn't about tolerance or intolerance. It's about wearing something that was enforced by men on women under a vile and murderous regime.

Again, the burka is extremely rare in the UK. And the few women who wear it in the UK were not forced to do so by the Taliban, who are thousands of miles away! Your argument is so ridiculous.

This has nothing to do with being closer to Allah! No god would want that barbaric life for any woman. There is nothing remotely tolerant about wearing a Burkha!

But if that is the women's wish, who are you to force them otherwise? What makes a burqa wearing woman intolerant? I don't follow your argument?

But prior to the 1980s the ME women wore “western women’s revealing clothes”

Oliversmum, you're confusing Iran with the whole of the ME. Not all ME women wore Western clothing in public.