When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

When people say that it's "western" ideology to say that covering up to whatever extent - don't they realise that this is a Saudi cultural thing imposed on other cultures and religions?

Write your own essay, OP

Yes many Muslims do speak out against FGM. Quite a few young women who have suffered are starting to speak out and I think they shall have much more influence and can question their parents decisions in a way those who are from different cultures can't

One girl being cut is one too many. I am not sure where you live but in some parts of the country the numbers are high as women and girls are often turning up at a&e because they have infections due to complications that arise from FGM and have only accessed medical help as a last resort

But out of 5,391 newly recorded cases of FGM found by GPs and NHS trusts in the year to March 2017, only 57 were performed in the UK of which 50, or 87 per cent, were in the category for piercings, and all the women whose ages were known were over 18.

Bizarre that the government counts women getting their gentitals pierced FGM.

I agree one girl getting cut is too many.

The fact that the vast majority of FGM cases were carried out abroad suggests that hardly anyone in the UK is willing to carry out the procedure. Whereas male circumcision is extremely common for Muslim and Jewish children.

I don't think the number of FGM victims getting help in a London hospital in the uk is really a good indication of how many have actual suffered FGM.

You say burkas are very rare. I was in Sainsbury’s yesterday and counted 5 women wearing them. That’s not rare. This wasn’t the case even 5 years ago.

You say burkas are very rare. I was in Sainsbury’s yesterday and counted 5 women wearing them. That’s not rare. This wasn’t the case even 5 years ago

Yet where I live in the Middle East (not Dubai) I could go out the whole day to day and not come across one person wearing one. In fact when I do see one its so unusual it attracts my attention.

I think the question that needs asked is why are British Muslims turning to the Burkha?

I see a lot (in central London) but these are mostly women from the ME staying over here. There were more this summer for some reason.

Recently back from NY and I didn't see one (plenty of ME tourists around) - I saw more American women in headscarves though that I'd ever seen before but these were bright ones over ordinary clothes. I've only seen one women in the full monty in the US.

In my opinion it’s because in a way they’re going ‘backwards’. That applies to countries like Turkey as well which used to be a lot more free. And I’m convinced it’s fuelled by angry man.

men

Economy maybe? I seem to remember something about trends for womens hem lines going up and down according economics. Maybe.

Multiculturalism. White British have be trained not yo question what non native British people do put of respect for that culture. Even if that culture means that women are forced into excluding themselves rom society either by heavy handed husbands or social pressure. Wearing a burka is never a free choice in my experience. A group of women will be forced to wear them by their husbands (often to hide bruises) and they then pressure other women from their social circle into wearing one as some strange form of reassurance.

It's not a free choice. If it were a free choice then why aren't non Muslim women making it? Why aren't Muslim women from middle class educated backgrounds making it? To suggest that this is a choice that women make completely of their own volition without external influence and pressure is absurd. Many Muslims think so. Certainly when I was growing up (in a Muslim family) burkas raised quite a few eyebrows. The burka is the literal effacement of women. It objectifies them and it excludes them from society. It's tragic that anyone should live their life that way regardless of whether they have convinced themselves that they want to or not.

@ racecardriver that is spot on. Why would you want to wear one out of free choice, it’s ridiculous, I couldn’t carry out my daily activities it would be impossible, you are hindered in them, it stops women from applying for certain jobs, as one lady said she’s a tree surgeon, how would that work?

@racecardriver
It's not only non native British people that wear niqaab. I know as many white British women that wear it was asians.

And women from middle class educated backgrounds do wear it. I know many women that started wearing it in university. Have you not seen the woman on good morning who is a research scientist with a PhD that wears it.

It doesn't exclude them from society. I have given numerous examples of women in niqaab who have jobs and work in society etc. You have chosen to ignore this.

@gin96 yes it does exclude you from certain jobs. If you want those job Then don't wear it. If however you don't want those jobs then there's no issue.

You have chosen to ignore this.

If Racecardriver is the poster I suspect they are nothing surprises me.

Yes I am seeing an increasing number of women wearing burqas. It used to be if I saw a woman wearing a burqa, she had just arrived from abroad. That is no longer the case, many are women who are British born. And it is to do with the radicalisation of Islam.

Or more women converts? I have only met white brit women who have married (husbands from abroad) and converted (well not that way around) and have chosen to cover up.

They follow the culture of their new husbands - so their belief around dress, daily living etc is dictated by their husbands culture - rather than religion. So they have made (some pretty major and unpleasant) changes, not their husbands.

I know one man who converted to appease his in-laws (who although they had lived in the UK many years were still very much of the mindset that their culture was head and shoulders above British) but remember when another of their daughters married a muslim man went apoplectic because he was the wrong 'sort' (not even one sunni and shia - more on CofE and one Church of Scotland).

I have met Asian British women who wear the burkha. And niqab is very very common, even when their mothers do not wear it.

Sorry meant hijab is very very common, not niqab.

I know one man who converted to appease his in-laws

If he converted to Islam it’s because a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man whereas a Muslim man can marry any woman who is from a religion of a book

Maybe in the eyes of the religion, not legally.

Wearing a niqab does limited choices just some are pretending that it doesn’t limit communication it does by its very nature of hiding the women’s face (which is why it was designed to keep women hidden)

You can’t teach/deal with patients/work in courts

I expect public office is also on the list

We shall probably follow many other European countries will a partial ban

I hope we ban them. Appalling notion that women need to be 'modest'.

I would love to wear the burka and I'm the mondernist woman you could wish to meet and I would be so proud If my daughter choose too it's a sign of a strong independent and beautiful courageous woman if done for the rite reasons

So I'm behind that all the way supporting everyone's choice

I think mostly it's a statement that they are showing their allegiance to political Islam and sticking two fingers up at what they see as decadent western culture that they perceive as their enemy. It's showing they are proud to do something which offends/shocks non-Muslims and is a sort of rebellion against the status quo and showing they don't care about fitting in. Of course they explain it away as being "feminist" or as being "pious" but it's just a form of Stockholm Syndrome in my opinion.