When did we become ok with the burka?

[Banana8080]

In my childhood (80s90s) I remember being sad some Muslim women were pressured not to show their full faces in public ie become invisible. These days much more focus on a women right to choose aka wear the full vail, even those who are possible under pressure.

When/why did this change happen?

In a civilised western country it is just so many kinds of wrong to hide your face.

Any civilised society should be tolerant, and you and some of your ilk are far from that.

The veil and burka are often used to describe covering of the face i know the difference one of more restrictive both were designed to keep women anonymous in public and still used how they were used pre Islam to transport women and girls to market to sell virgins hidden to protect their owners valuable possession

islamqa.info/en/45528

There is plenty on the internet that supports FGM or rather what supporters call Female Circumcision and will claim its in the Hadiths not matter how weak that connection is because this has been open to interpretation let’s not pretend it isn’t. And because of this millions of women have suffered

I hadn’t thought before this thread about the fact that slavery and trafficking are real problems in the U.K., and full face and body coverings could be used to facilitate this.

I’m not sure a womens right to choose what she wears trumps safety concerns like that. I mean fundamentally that’s why we don’t go naked isn’t it - I know public decency blah blah - because it’s unsanitary. The health risk to others is given greater weight than your right to parade your bare arse around public areas. Similarly, if full face coverings are facilitating a safety risk to women then perhaps the right to wear them should be withdrawn.

Enthusiaam, you can't alway rely on scholars. The best thing for people to do is make their own study of Islam.

If FGM were an Islamic practice, it would be practiced across the Islamic world rather than just in some countries in Africa. It is very much a cultural practice that has been confused with religion.

Batteries

Sadly it's all to use to traffic women to the UK. You really don't need face coverings to facilitate it. Airport security do ask veiled women to show their faces.

*it's all too easy

Totally agree

Problem being girls are being kept away from school teachings are to often word of mouth

Cultural and religious practice always has and always will cross over and that will be impacted by how that society functions, share of wealth, education, laws and health of the population

I’m not for banning it, but I think it’s giving a message it’s shameful to be a woman. Why do you have to hide out the way to eat? Why can’t women just take it off and eat with everyone else? If you want to wear it fine but surely you can take it off when you want to? What benefits the woman wearing it? When I ride my horse I put on equestrian clothes, when I run I put on a track suit and trainers, when I go out I might wear stilettos but I don’t have to wear them every time I go out the front door.

I was referring to women and girls being sold by Isis transported in cadges covered so the more pricey merchandise is hidden this is what full covering was designed this still happens

Women and girls shouldn’t ever have the need to hide their identity in public to be invisible

We know sex trafficking goes on in the UK I wasn’t making a connection to the veil/burka being worn here with sex trafficking in the UK I was pointing out the origins of the use

Havaina

I was thinking more once they are inside the U.K.

Face coverings keep them inconspicuous. Two men transporting a 17 year old around might get looked at, the child’s face might get noted, but transporting a women in a burka around wouldn’t give the same opportunity to look.

Two men can regularly walk past a police station with someone in a burka, and it wouldn’t get noted in the same way two men regularly walking past with a different, young, scared looking girl would do.

I know kidnapping and trafficking can happen under any circumstances but often rings are uncovered because of something small - like some ugly old bloke regularly being seen with a different young girl - that gets people looking and talking and then the whole thing starts to unravel. Full face coverings allow the public movement of unwilling girls to happen with impunity, I hadn’t thought about it before but once you think about it it’s obvious.

@enthusiasmisdisturbed
From the article you posted
"Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves. "
So I'm not sure how this is advocating for clitoral removal as you previously mentioned. I asked you To Show me one scholar that advocates clitoral removal.

@batteriesallgone I also work as a modern slavery and human trafficking support worker in a woman's refuge.
None of the woman wear niqaab or ever have worn it. The majority were forced into prostitution so were actually forced to dress a certain way. Others were forced into domestic servitude.
This risk to safety isn't actually real. It is an imagined, potential risk that causes focus to be diverted from actual risks that are happening right now and have been demonstrated.
@gin96 no one has to do anything. Women choose. For some it is an empowerment which demonstrates they have total control over their body and who gets to look at it and when.

Also having your fave covered doesn't make you invisible. It's not an invisibility cloak. What makes you invisible is people not listening to your voice, assuming your motives, chosing not to talk to you because of your dress.

Trafficking is obvious begging gangs and prostitution in my area.
Guess what. No one stops them. The police just move them on. If they are questioned they lie because they are scared.
Having their fave uncovered doesn't help combat trafficking.

I think banning any item of clothing is treading a precarious route.

So a man walking down the road in a mankini is ok or how about a gimp outfit with a woman on a leash? All personal choice right?

I have tried to talk to a couple of ladies in the full face veil, they couldn’t speak a word of English and looked terrified when I walked towards them. I feel sorry for women who feel they have to cover up before they can leave the house.

Your premise is it's hard to see their expression, and communicate
Yet somehow without them saying a word you could see they were terrified?

So either you can communicate and you can still see their expression, and is not as much of a barrier to communication as you are making out.
Or you assumed their expression and feelings?

Two men can regularly walk past a police station with someone in a burka, and it wouldn’t get noted in the same way two men regularly walking past with a different, young, scared looking girl would do.

Batteries - burqas are very rare in the UK and people wearing them face closer inspection. They wouldn't be a good choice for people wanting to hide and there are no reported cases where a girl has been trafficked to the UK in a burqa. Your hypothesis is therefore bordering on scare-mongering.

There you go

www.ibtimes.co.uk/muslim-scholar-calls-legal-female-circumcision-claiming-prophet-muhammad-condoned-it-1661077

If it wasn’t supported by scholars, clerics and imams the practice would not be such an issue we would not have thousands of girls every year being taken abroad to be cut sadly it is supported by too many with their tenuous links to religious writings. I don’t believe those links to be correct I saying it happens

Not all people are raised to question their religious beliefs that they have been informed of it to question those they see as knowing better are you really claiming that some clerics, imams and scolars (add bishops, priests, nuns) haven’t twisted religion

@ Nailak it is when I started talking to them they moved away, it is there whole body language not just their face.

I can't bear to read the info about FGM it makes me absolutely livid with rage. It is a real thing, I started a job at a school and it was part of my training to know what to do about it. Hideous barbaric practice, by brain dead fucking idiots. As usual to please men!

Thank you. I wasn't aware of this person and I will certainly share this article.

It's also interesting how it's other Muslims that are calling him out and saying it's unacceptable.

I also read an article lately that shows fgm in the UK may not be as prevalent as people think.
Personally I know 2 people Who Have had it done as a child. One had "pharonic" she told me she told her parents I'm going to be a do It anyway to show you how ridiculous this practice is.
The other had partial hoodectomy. She says although she hasn't had any complications or difficulties resulting from the procedure, the actual way it was done traumatised her.
Both had it done as children abroad. And both families have now stopped the practice.
Found the article. It is from the daily mail though so I'm not sure on the interpretation of the data.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6172293/First-clinic-young-FGM-victims-sees-just-five-girls-year.html

@gin96
There you go then. Without seeing people's face, from their body language you can recognise expression and feeling.

Although maybe they just didn't want to talk to you. It's a bit like that air b and b guest who got the police called on her because she didn't wave.

And yes I totally agree some people have twisted religion, and have said that Muslims are not perfect and like every other culture face patriarchal oppression and misogyny.

My gripe is it is often Muslim women talking out against these things. Seriously the amount of times I get called a feminazi, and am told that I'm influenced by "western" ideology or whatever. That is used to dismiss me and silence my voice.
But feminists are doing the same thing. To them I'm brainwashed too, and they use that to silence my voice.
Disempowering, dehumanizing and Infantalising Muslim women, viewing them as some sort of eternal victim, is not empowering, is not solidarity, and does not help tackle attitudes which are hateful towards women.

Here's another article for you
5pillarsuk.com/2018/01/16/banning-muslim-schoolgirls-from-wearing-the-hijab-is-institutional-islamophobia/

@Nailak it is when I started talking to them they moved away, it is there whole body language not just their face.

Gin96 - or maybe they were scared because they have faced so much racism due to being visibly Muslim and were scared that you would either verbally or physically attack them?

And that's not their fault or yours, bit the racists who rip off the hijab from Muslim women, who spit at them and tell them 'Paki go home' or like the woman in a veil who was followed home and hit on the head with a brick.

I'm more sad about those yhonhs, not about women who excersise their right to wear whatever the hell they want.

I’ll keep trying I’m a very friendly person, I went over with a big smile on my face but I don’t think they speak any English

Interesting initiative....
We have meet your Muslim neighbour,
Maybe should start a meet your niqaab neighbour....