To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

Have you actually ASKED why it would be ok to have a women only group but not a men only group at your bike club??

As a guess, a women group only wouod allow women to join wo feeling overwhelmed, like they are the only one out or feel they are pushed aside because thy dint ‘belong’ there. Biking as long been a men only activity so attracting women might mean giving them a ‘safe space’ wher they can try it out, feel at ease etc...
In effect it’s a nice way to ‘ease’ women into a group when
1- this is an activity usually done by men
2- the culture might well be misogynist (a guess there)
3- women in general will feel intimidated

On the other side, in an activity where you find mainly men, having men only group will very surely segregate women and will become quickly ‘the’ way to meet up as men will outnumber women.

In effect bith reactions are for me the necessary step to ensure equality because we are not yet living in a society that treats men and women equally.
Similar for me that iniative that will give a ‘special’ place for black people or women (eg give them priority) when applying to job.
It’s treating people inequally to that they are actually becoming equal within the group.l

Once we will have achieved real equality, measures like this won’t be necessary anymore.
But we can’t act as if we already are equal when we are not because it out the group at a disadvantage in a position where they can’t get that equality iyswim. (In your case, women will be thinking twice before joining the biking group).

YABU for "womens rights" as there is no such thing.
There is, however, Human Rights.

If women genuinely wanted equality they would campaign for men’s identify to be kept secret

Seriously? How about the buggers stop raping women?

If we want equality, we need to do something fairly radical, which is rethink how our society works and work towards replacing patriarchal structures with ones that treat each sex equitably. That would be really feminist

Your internalised misogyny is showing.

Equality isn't about treating everybody precisely the same, it's about making sure everybody has equality of opportunity, equality of access, equality of outcome. That we end up on an equal footing, unimpeded by the disadvantages the structure of our society would otherwise force upon us.

In your version of equality, presumably wheelchair users would just have to deal with the fact that the equal means of access into buildings for everybody was steps?

That making structural changes was going too far and unfair on all the non wheelchair users?

That what we should actually do is teach the wheelchair users to accept their limitations and that they don't belong inside buildings with stepped access?

That they should not be able to have wheelchair rugby clubs because that excludes all the people who only have traditional rugby to play? And why shouldn't those people be able to join in with both kinds if they want to? It's not their fault they're not wheelchair users.

That wheelchair users would be told to know your place and stop pushing for better legal protection from street harassment and discrimination? "Take it as a compliment they even noticed you."

That wheelchair users would be told it's unfair on businesses and other employees to expect the reasonable adjustments necessary to working practices and buildings that would enable them to participate in the workplace on the same terms as their colleagues? That making adaptations doesn't make business sense and gives them special treatment?

Or would you instead think that actually they're valuable individuals just like you and do not deserve to have their lives restricted and limited by the way we have chosen to structure our society to exclude them from all the opportunities you take for granted?

The only "disadvantage" being "suffered" by the men in your op is of losing their special privileged position of power, and instead having to be treated as ordinary humans without special rights and privileges to take up more space in the world.

There's nothing wrong with you not understanding the nature of power imbalances in our society, or what institutionalised sexism means, or even what equality actually means. But there is everything wrong with you calling the women who do understand it "man haters" and working to undermine the efforts of people who are trying to make our society a fairer, more balanced place for everyone.

I don't know any women who are "man haters". I do however know many, many women who are - with incredibly good reason - afraid of men. "Man hater" is just a term of abuse used to try and silence and undermine people working to improve life for women. So why are you using it?

You, on the other hand, sound very much like you hate women. Why is that? Why do you hate yourself and think you are lesser?

@butterflysugarbaby
Thanks blush

“If women genuinely wanted equality they would campaign for men’s identify to be kept secret along side women’s in sexual assault allegations“

Good lord, why?

Great posts on this thread, summarised in:

We are a hell of a long way off equality yet.

And something along the lines of men don't care about equality, those that are upset is of losing privileges.

Op I think I understand what you are saying. Its quite a difficult one to explain. As I read your op you are not saying you are against women only events nor do I think you feel that you should be " less " than men.

I think the problem is when we try to have this conversation it sounds very basic. This can get people view it as a bit of a minor thing.

Some years ago at work we were looking at doing some social club things. The idea of Chippingdales came up and the woman in charge said " I find it best to ask yourself this " "Would you be ok with the men doing the same for them?" The answer is no.. I would not be ok with the men at work organising a trip out to watch strippers. So why is it ok that the females does? (We didn't organise the chippingdales either ) I know this is a extreme example and it is not even that the men might want " male only" bike races they just should have the ability to do so " if " they felt it was needed. So if we get to a situation where we say that 1 gender can have x but the other gender can't do similar for their side, then we are actually going down the wrong path.

This doesn't = that we do not want to be able to create single gender events. It means we want both genders to have equal chances to do so. Frankly for me both the chippingdales and a bike ride is my idea of hell. I do go to a local knitting club. It is open for all in practice we are all female. However if a guy was to turn up we would pull out a chair and welcome him. (and feed him cake - we feed everyone cake)

That is the world I want my children to grow up in. one where they can show up at any club they are interested in and be welcomed on a equal footing.

I am not sure we are there yet not for females and in some places not for male.. So I think we need to keep working.

WOW OP, your husband has got you WELL brainwashed, and well trained.

I actually pity you.

KT, you're welcome...

I think you are conflating "equality" with "equity" (aka equal opportunity with inherent barriers removed).

...we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.

What makes you think all men resent women's activities or don't sometimes want to take part in men's activities? My DS and DH actually like to hang out with their male friends sometimes, they don't want to share changing rooms, intimate spaces with women, they are part of a shared male culture just as much as many women are part of a shared female culture and want privacy in intimate spaces. My gay male friends like to hang out with their other gay male friends sometimes. If your partner resents women's activities I wonder if there might not be control issues there?

Also 'The Two Ronnies' made at a time when sexism, homophobia and racism were barely challenged in the mainstream, hardly an example of an equal society that we should all aspire to,

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times.

What do you mean by equality here? Because it's nothing I recognise or any of the organisations that monitor equality issues, violence against women and so on...Here are just a few examples:

In the UK
• Two women are killed by their partner every week in England and Wales. Of all female homicides, 40% are killed by gendered violence.
• The UK police receive a call every minute about domestc abuse, 89% of which are about a woman being abused by a man.
• Only 24% cases of domestic violence are actually reported, say Women's Aid.
www.amnesty.org.uk/violence-against-women

The equality gap between men and women would take 100 years to close at its current rate, an economic monitoring group has suggested.

It is the first time that data from the World Economic Forum (WEF) has shown a year-on-year worsening of the gender gap since it began charting it in 2006.

The report ranks 144 countries by economic opportunities, education, political participation and health.

Women are measured as having 68% of the chances and outcomes that men have.

This is slightly down from the 68.3% measured last year.

The group predicts that it would take a century to close all areas of equality it monitors globally, well up from the 83 years predicted in 2016.

The UK ranks 95th in the world for income equality, with women in the UK earning on average 45% less per year than men.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41844875

@crazydoglady6867

Ah so you’re the “I’m alright Jack” type of poster who thinks they’ve fought the good fight, cracked feminism and it’s redundant. Because of the experiences of a sample size of 2?

You’re not answering any of the very pertinent questions OP, why is that?

"I know MN has a good proportion of man haters " Yes. A fuck load. Luckily they tend to be confined to their keyboards

two women per week in the UK are killed by their male partners or ex partners.

It is surprising how forgiving women are, to be honest. They keep on looking after the kids, working hard in the home for nothing and standing by their man.

Women aguing against women's rights is a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas. But, hey it's a free country.

And before anyone says I'm just bitter: I'm happily married to a man, kids and a job in a STEM subject. I am thinking or other, less fortunate women, than myself.

So many of you so quick to be on the defence and attack- you've read OP's point thoroughly and taken in her point of view before bashing the keys so hard to get your own point across??
You've skim read, it's a motorcycle club not a cycling club.

Also OP the UK is doing pretty badly where women are concerned:

Britain has made zero progress in tackling inequality between the sexes in the past decade and lags behind Sweden, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands and France in the EU’s latest gender equality league table.
The UK joins Slovakia and the Czech Republic among the EU’s 28 member states in having made no significant advances in reducing levels of inequality when taking into account a range of fields including the workplace, income, education, health or political engagement.
Britain’s performance declined in the field of educational attainment between 2005 and 2015, according to the Gender Equality Index, although the country remains one the EU’s three best performers in that area.
www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/oct/11/uk-no-further-forward-on-tackling-gender-inequality-eu-league-table-shows

You've skim read, it's a motorcycle club not a cycling club

Indeed. Which is even more a bastion of masculinity and thus indicates why female only rises would be a positive thing.

Still waiting for the OP to tell me why women's rights are bad for women.

Do you mean a day when women who might not have ever used a gym before can come in and have a go without worrying about men being there which might encourage them to start getting fit? One day a year......?

Why is the starting point always that men intimidate women or make them feel uncomfortable, meanwhile women will welcome other women, be inclusive etc. Basically the opposite of whatever you think that men will do?

I go to a local gym, usually during the day so at that time it's mainly women there. I hate it! The women look you up and down and generally make me feel uncomfortable.

If I go at weekends it's a much nicer atmosphere.

I've had things said to me on this site, I'm assuming by women as they are on the feminist boards, that a man has never said to me. I've been put down, belittled etc simply because I have an opposing view.

Why would I want to be in segregated with other women when some women treat other women worse than some men do?

You all seem blind to this fact. A lot of women don't treat other women very well at all.

At work I find that male managers are far more understanding, will be far more accommodating if I need to swap shifts for hospital appointments etc.

Female managers on the other hand seem to take the approach that we should show no weakness. That we all need to power through to show men that we are equal to, or better than them.

I agree with the OP. In an attempt to bring equality men are being treated as less than equal in some instances. How does this help women? It makes us look like the only way that we can succeed is by removing men.

I used to be a school governor and when they bought performance related pay into schools we had to have training from the LA HR department so that we understood how to implement it.

One thing that we were told is that if a female teacher had had any maternity leave during the performance cycle, any at all, then we should progress her to the next pay level regardless of whether she had achieved the targets. The reason being it is not worth risking a claim of discrimination, even when none has occurred eg if the woman only missed 1 month out of the cycle, so less than a male teacher who had sick leave or who had taken shared paternity leave.

Most of the women at the training were appalled by this. For some reason women were being judged as unable to perform as equals. They were seen as needing special treatment. Yes, make targets pro rata so if you've missed 1/12 of the cycle then reduce targets proportionately. But I would expect the same for a man that has been absent too.

I want them to be taught to stand up for themselves in a Male dominated environment

Male bikers can be intimidating to women. It's not a knitting club.

The way you get more women to join testosterone heaven biker clubs is to have women only rides.
The way you encourage them to join the men equally is to have mixed groups, after they've been around and got used (and vice versa) to the men bikers.
Men only rides already exist, don't they? In practice, if not on paper.

Conversely, a knitting club might find it useful to have men only sessions so that men feel more at ease.
It's all about context.

You've skim read, it's a motorcycle club not a cycling club.

Yes, I posted assuming it was a cycling group, and was typing it and posting it whilst the OP clarified that it was actually motorbikes.

However, my general point still stands, that women only events tend to be about encouraging women to join in when they might otherwise feel intimidated.

jaques

A
I am doing my best but I don’t know all the answers that is why I posted to get different views to give me the answers.

What I am trying to say is that we are not doing ourselves any favours in segregating ourselves if we want to be equal, I keep repeating this but surely we are just saying “ leave us alone, don’t come here intimidating us as we cannot cope and don’t want to have to stand up for ourselves”

And the more we stand up for ourselves the sooner men/bullies will learn they cannot behave like that.

I want them to be taught to stand up for themselves in a Male dominated environment

But why is that the ideal? It is exhausting to live in a world where the default view of power is tough and male and that in order to live in it women have to toughen up.

Why can't 'tough' men soften up instead? Why do we have to conform to their way of living instead of the other way round? Life does not need to be a constant battle just because we've inherited a world where (some) men made it so because it suited them - it could, instead, be a much more cooperative world.

Disclaimer: I understand people are individuals and some men are soft and some women are tough naturally.

So many of you so quick to be on the defence and attack

Here was I thinking that the OP made false claims re: equality, and sweeping statements about women who care about these issues being man-haters and then a number of other posters responded with actual verifiable information that refuted the premise of her post.

@Arthuritis

So you’re saying because you wouldn’t want to attend a female only session, these shouldn’t exist for anybody?

You keep wanging in about how you just want women to be able to stand up for themselves in a male environment. In a perfect world this would be true, but you show an astounding lack of empathy, understanding, or even basic comprehension of why this is simply not possible for a significant portion of women in a range of situations.

For example; girls from strict or conservative background do not want to swim or be in a state of undress in front of men while taking part in sport
Your solution? Let the discard their culture and beliefs and get on with it. Or better, just let them stop of their own accord, then the men won’t have to miss the hour in a Wednesday afternoon when they can’t go in the pool.

Or girls are being sexually harassed and even raped in schools and would like, er, not to be. Or at least have access to some female only space in their school to get away from the toxic atmosphere
Your solution? Get a backbone girls! What about the boys? Why are they not allowed into your loos?

Or a young girl starts as a warehouse manager. She doing really well, however little does she know that her male counterpart is getting paid a grand a year more than her.
Your solution? That never happens (whispers.... it really does).