To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

I keep repeating this but surely we are just saying “ leave us alone, don’t come here intimidating us as we cannot cope and don’t want to have to stand up for ourselves”

No. We’re not.

I 'stand up for myself' in an environment full of men.

Not just a certain career choice but a physical environment with men who have a history of extreme violence - often against women. I'm confident doing that. They are often suprised by that.

But the fact is, if I was in an environment (or in a relationship) with some of these men where I wasn't in a position of authority and didn't have alarms and people who would come to help if I needed it- some of these men would seriously hurt or possibly even kill me. Easily. No 'standing up for myself' would makea bit of difference.

You can empower women to 'stand up for themselves in a male dominated environment' but the fact is, women are at physical risk from men. Until the men stop abusing women, women will need safe places away from men.

It sounds like youve been brainwashed by your sexist husband into thinking that making allowances so that women feel able to join a male dominated and traditionally majorly sexist hobby, is in any way the same as a bloke wanting to exclude women

Why do you feel the need to put another woman down? Why can't she have her own thoughts that simply are different to yours? Imo you are as bad as the men that would seek to do the sam, seek to downplay a woman's thoughts with a metaphorical pat on the head.

Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you?

No, I didn't think so.

Jacques...

My point was not what kind of club it is but just the fact that this subject stirs up so many emotions that I wish people would take more time to read more thoroughly before they c+p their pre prepared thoughts, stats and anti- whatever's into every thread with the slightest hint of anything other than their own.

@Arthuritis gets misogynist of the thread award. WELL DONE!

Female managers on the other hand seem to take the approach that we should show no weakness. That we all need to power through to show men that we are equal to, or better than them.

And do you think that's because they're evil women, or because that's the reality they faced climbing the ladder?

Male managers may well be accommodating, but who will they give promotions to?
How many women progress to the top levels? Still way off an equal rate.

Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you?

I wouldn’t mind in the slightest

Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you?

Seems perfectly fair. Why on earth would anyone object to that?

Why would I want to be in segregated with other women when some women treat other women worse than some men do?

Women do not harrass, intimidate, rape, beat up or murder other women on anything like the scale that men do these things to women.

Hence the need for safe space. And a woman giving you side eye, whilst it may make you feel self conscious or unwelcome, doesn’t make you feel unsafe, does it?

You have the option to go to single sex or mixed sex classes/gym, etc. Great! I for one am very glad when both options are available.

And the more we stand up for ourselves the sooner men/bullies will learn they cannot behave like that.

Sounds suspiciously like victim blaming to me, so are you saying the women who've been brutalised and raped would have been ok if they'd just stood up to men?

Similarly in work places it should also be considered that a lot of networking groups for women have helped other women progress and develop strategies for surviving male-dominated industries.

We had a man come to our knitting club once. We were so nice to him, falling over ourselves to be welcoming, apologetic almost for the female centred topics. Which isn’t probably the reason he never came again.

Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you

Erm, yes.

And the more we stand up for ourselves the sooner men/bullies will learn they cannot behave like that.

Oh that's what all the abuse, violence, raping and murdering is about, women haven't shown men how to behave by stopping them punching, raping and killing us.

Fuck, we've gone all about this the wrong way then..

You're also confusing something, OP.

Women don't want to be equal to men. We're not. Biological fact.

Feminism is about equality of opportunities and outcome.
That is different.

It's about women being able and feeling free and safe riding their bikes.
Until bikers lose their male testosterone filled culture, women only groups are part of achieving equal opportunities and outcome.

I've saved this cartoon on my phone for these occasions.

It works both ways OP. Our town has a youth choir and a boys choir. The boys choir was started because the "mixed sex" youth choir had been wholly female for years. Now they sing together sometimes. Hopefully, in time, they will be merged and there will be no need for a boys choir. But at 80+ girls to 16 boys the time for that is not yet.

At my sister’s hen do, a group of 10 young women aged 28-32, we got on to past experiences and every single one of us had been either molested, sexually assaulted or raped. My mum was raped in the 70s. Not just ambiguous ‘he went too far / misread the signals’, as in touched in intimate places as children, given sweets to touch men; been sleeping at a party and woke up to an acquaintance having sex with her; been groomed by the 30-yro school swimming manager and in a relationship with him from 14-18yro; been sitting in a bar and had a man slip his hand in her knickers. So from the petty to the serious, every single young woman there had had their bodies interfered with without their permission.

We are nice middle class women with good (a number of us with multiple) degrees from top unis and good jobs. Some of us at the hen were privately educated, the rest were at excellent Scottish state schools. No alcohol or drug problems. Parents are lawyers, financial advisors and doctors, etc. In other words, male privilege and the abuse of women and girls crosses all class and wealth lines. In fact, a number of top public schools that went co-ed in the last 20 years have had to cover up horrific rapes and even two gang rapes.

And you wonder why we want segregated spaces in certain circumstances and hate certain kinds of male behaviour?

Yes, NAMALT, but there is no barrier (education, wealth, class) to a man exercising his male privilege.

To clarify, Not just ambiguous ‘he went too far / misread the signals’ but rather every single one of us had been* either touched in intimate places as children...

“If women genuinely wanted equality they would campaign for men’s identify to be kept secret along side women’s in sexual assault allegations“

Good lord, why?

Because a small number of women make up allegations against men and when that happens his life is ruined.

I know a man who had an accusation made against him. Full investigation conducted both by his employer and by the police.

Both found no case to answer. No evidence at all to support the allegation.

He now cannot get another job because this allegation shows up on his DBS check. The lady in question meanwhile has moved on with nothing on her record.

In a situation like this either the allegation is removed from his record (but I get why it isn't because of what has happened in the past with Ian Huntley) or the accusor has a note on her DBS. that she made an unfounded allegation (but then I worry that this will put women off from coming forward).

One way or another though the man in this case is being treated unfairly. He is suffering consequences for something he didn't do. Yes some men are guilty. But innocent men shouldn't be punished also.

“Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you?“

Yep. Fine with that. I run a boy’s book group at Ds’s school to help address issues around boys literacy.

@Arthuritis
Women look you up and down? I'd rather that than what often happens in male dominated gyms.

Guys coming over and trying to chat you up, watching you in the mirrors so your performance is slightly affected, giving you "advice" on how to restructure your workout splits despite you saying you've researched this thoroughly and it works for you (and them ignoring the male beginners who are cluessly trying to work the machines) and all sorts of clumsy and unwelcome flirting.
I watched a guy do this to a girl at my gym the other day, so familiar.
She got out a mat and a resistance band and in between doing weights she did some floor stuff that involved her being on all 4s, some guy came and stood over her and was like "well well well what crazy new exercise are you showing us today Laura?!" and just trying to banter with her.
Like fuck off mate, shes in the middle of a fucking exercise.
Then she went up the stairs to where the bars and stuff are and he popped his head over and was like "come on, you can do better than that hahahaha!"
Its just clumsy flirting but its like why dont you FUCK OFF you twat.

And do you think that's because they're evil women, or because that's the reality they faced climbing the ladder?

I don't care why they are doing it.

The effect of them doing it is that they are treating women less favourably because they are expecting women to be more, to do more than men to in some way prove ourselves.

What is better than men? If women have 51% of the worlds resources, money and power would that mean we were better than men and therefore this is a terrible travesty that should not be allowed? Men currently have 95% of this at the moment - where’s your condemnation for that? Or is that ok because that’s how it’s ‘always been’?

There’s millions of men who would be quite happy for us all to stfu and get back in the kitchen. We don’t need to give them a helping hand.

Men have managed to dominate women just fine for hundreds of thousands of years. You don't need to worry about 'equality going too far' - they still manage to kill 100 plus female partners a year in the UK, despite women having 'their own running races' etc

@Arthuritis gets misogynist of the thread award. WELL DONE!
And you've proven my point.

Don't seek to discuss my post, to talk about the points I've raised.

Just try to put me down and silence me with an insult.

In that example Arthuritis how would anonymity for the male have helped the situation he now apparently finds himself in?