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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To the two ladies at Dingwall Road bus stop in Croydon at 16.15pm today ...

315 replies

ArbitersCarbiters · 14/09/2018 16:53

It is never acceptable for you (without permission) to reach out and touch a black woman’s hair.

How would you feel if a complete stranger came up to you on the street, complimented your hair cut and then immediately reached out their hands to run it through your hair?

You crossed an unacceptable boundary in doing so.

In case you were still wondering:
(A) One of you being 72 years of age is not an excuse.
(B) You thinking it is beautiful and that your actions were meant as a compliment is not an excuse.
(C) The owner of said hair smiling and laughing it off is not an excuse.*

*This is most important because as soon as she got on that bus i.e. away from your inappropriate wandering hands, she expressed that she was exhausted after a long day at work, froze when you did what you did and didn’t have the wherewithal or energy to tell you how unacceptable it was for fear of hurting your feelings and/or being labelled as aggressive/overreacting. I know this feeling well as I have very often experienced and felt the same thing (so has she in the past, in case you were wondering). This is why I spoke for her. This is why I told you it was not an acceptable thing to act so intimately with a person you had never met. This is why I told you that she had said nothing to you for fear that she would cause you offence. In doing so, I was speaking for the many of us who have to put up with this shit everyday.

I imagine you will go home and talk about the angry busybody black woman who had the temerity to question your right to touch another woman’s hair. Let it be known that I spoke to you politely, with a smile and no discernible anger in my voice. But trust me when I tell you that I was angry. Remember this the next time you feel like complimenting someone in such a demeaning, inappropriate way. We are not pets whose fur you can ruffle at will. We are not children. We are women, just like you, who hold the right to go about our daily business without fear of being touched intimately by a stranger.

AIBU?

OP posts:
YeTalkShiteHen · 14/09/2018 19:17

CognitiveDissonance I’m awaiting a response on that. I’ve seen them unambiguously clamp down on racism before (rightly), and I’ve asked them to do it again. Because for some reason, particularly in the last few weeks, it’s the latest food for trolls. Much like disablism has been for a very long time, without much reaction from MNHQ.

Fiintastic · 14/09/2018 19:18

Only racist things I've seen on this thread is the two phrases "White privilege " and "White fragility "

Explain to me why that's ok to say ?

tootiredtospeak · 14/09/2018 19:19

No one is being unreasonable if they themselves ask not to be touched anywhere hair or otherwise. Other people asking someone not to touch someone else as they percieve it as offensive and racist is ridiculous.

RomanyRoots · 14/09/2018 19:19

It's not a race issue at all.
My hair is almost afro, not quite as I'm white British. It doesn't stop people wanting to touch it.
If they ask, I don't mind and see it as a compliment, if I don't feel like it, I tell them.
I don't like them just randomly touching it if they are a stranger, but not enough to be that bothered tbh.
it must be bad if you really don't like it, but certainly not racist.

YeTalkShiteHen · 14/09/2018 19:20

No, you’re boring me now.

You see what you want to see, and are claiming people are racist for talking about a widely recognised phenomenon.

There is quite literally no reasoning with someone who cannot be reasonable.

CognitiveDissonance · 14/09/2018 19:23

There is nothing racist about the terms white privilege or white fragility. It is privilege and fragility that allow you to label both of those terms as racist rather than understand where they come from in the first place.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 14/09/2018 19:23

Well, if white people are trying to explain it is their experience also and you’re not listening, what do you expect?

Gushpanka · 14/09/2018 19:23

This gave me pause as I'm not sure if it's a race issue since something similar just happened to me.

I'm white for the record. I was just staying at a hotel for a conference and had chatted the night before to two older Iraqi ladies. I saw them at breakfast and one of them ran her fingers through my hair and said 'beautiful, beautiful '.

I really would rather she hadnt as im really not comfortable with it but laughed and said thank you - and moved away!

Fiintastic · 14/09/2018 19:25

This reply has been deleted

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YeTalkShiteHen · 14/09/2018 19:25

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar nobody’s saying it doesn’t happen to white women.

But have those white women also had to contend with daily micro aggressions related to our race? Have we had to deal with constant examples of subtle racism? Been treated differently and othered regularly?

No, we haven’t. So it’s not the same.

YeTalkShiteHen · 14/09/2018 19:25

You haven’t “got” anything Flint, that much is abundantly clear. Apart from the urge to be goady.

Fiintastic · 14/09/2018 19:26

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Twinning1 · 14/09/2018 19:28

Urgh I hate what this world is becoming. The lady was in fact being kind. She was not racist. She didn’t say any nasty comments. Yes... she has personal boundary issues but she’s not racist. Race or sex shouldn’t matter. It’s not a race thing. People are just curious I think. I have twins and people were forever touching my bump and asking intrusive questions. They now touch my babies because they find them interesting that there are two. I never had this with my Singleton. Yes it’s odd and it makes me feel uncomfortable but I don’t think race or sex comes into it. People just find certain things interesting be it red hair, twins, baby bumps, curly hair etc.

RhiWrites · 14/09/2018 19:29

It’s like the Narcissist’s Prayer only for racism in here today.

‘That didn’t happen.
And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is, that’s not racist.
And if it was, it wasn’t intended as racism
And if racism ever existed
It doesn’t happen today.

Yes it was racist, yes the fetishisation of black hair has been written about by countless black women. But some people are determined to reject these #ownvoices telling them about racism and insist because this happened to them one time on holiday it’s not a racial issue.

Wow.

tabulahrasa · 14/09/2018 19:29

I have curly hair... no-one touches it.

I kind of assume it’s partly because as I’m white it’s not “exotic” enough to warrant touching and that because I’m white if occasionally someone does try to touch it I’ll happily stop them without worrying about how it will be received.

If someone reaches out to touch my hair and I go, don’t, it goes frizzy if it’s handled, people just accept that, they don’t go... oh I was just paying you a compliment or whatever reason they think makes them entitled to touch someone without permission.

So yes, race does make a difference, I’m pretty surprised anyone thinks differently tbh.

Fiintastic · 14/09/2018 19:30

This reply has been deleted

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Charolais · 14/09/2018 19:30

It's a race issue because she's black and black people get people touching their hair, without consent, more than white people do

Provide the stats on this statement.

I'm a white woman who has had her hair gone through by her back friend's hands because they were trying to figure out how I just washed it and let it air dry after just having to brush it.

CognitiveDissonance · 14/09/2018 19:30

"Their"

Nice job with the subtle othering there.

Label it as an agenda if it makes it easier for you to ignore the reality of the micro aggressions, tone policing, whitesplaining, and othering that black women have to face every day. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

MadameButterface · 14/09/2018 19:31

it is a race issue

it may also happen to the odd white person

but it happens to black and mixed race people far far more

like someone used the example upthread of groping being a feminist issue - just because men may have their arses groped very very occasionally does not make groping of women not a widespread thing.

in fact the unwanted touching of black women's hair is so ubiquitous and relatable, someone wrote a computer game about it, free to play online, here you go:

Hair Nah

CarolineMumsnet · 14/09/2018 19:31

Hi all. Thanks to those who have already got in touch about this thread - we're keeping a close eye. Please do continue to report posts that break Talk guidelines, and we'll take them down right away.
Flowers

Itreallyistimetochangethings · 14/09/2018 19:31

To those of you who still think it is acceptable - it is not - I think this pic illustrates how we feel.

To the two ladies at Dingwall Road bus stop in Croydon at 16.15pm today ...
StuntNun · 14/09/2018 19:32

Fiintastic white fragility is a commonly used term for when white people become uncomfortable and defensive when they come across racial stress. The phrase was coined by a (white) professor studying racism and it is not itself a racist term. Hth.

MadameButterface · 14/09/2018 19:32

I'm a white woman who has had her hair gone through by her back friend's hands because they were trying to figure out how I just washed it and let it air dry after just having to brush it.

there's a key word here, can you spot it? it's the word 'friend'. 'friend' has a different meaning from 'randoms on public transport' last time I checked

CognitiveDissonance · 14/09/2018 19:33

Provide the stats on this statement.

Black women are always expected to provide evidence of their experiences. Why is it what black women cannot just be listened to? Why can't black women be heard? Why can't black women be believed? Why is it always "pictures or it didn't happen" rather than taking a moment to listen and understand?

MadameButterface · 14/09/2018 19:34

"It’s like the Narcissist’s Prayer only for racism in here today.

‘That didn’t happen.
And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is, that’s not racist.
And if it was, it wasn’t intended as racism
And if racism ever existed
It doesn’t happen today."

this is fucking genius @RhiWrites

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