To the two ladies at Dingwall Road bus stop in Croydon at 16.15pm today ...

[ArbitersCarbiters]

It is never acceptable for you (without permission) to reach out and touch a black woman’s hair.

How would you feel if a complete stranger came up to you on the street, complimented your hair cut and then immediately reached out their hands to run it through your hair?

You crossed an unacceptable boundary in doing so.

In case you were still wondering:
(A) One of you being 72 years of age is not an excuse.
(B) You thinking it is beautiful and that your actions were meant as a compliment is not an excuse.
(C) The owner of said hair smiling and laughing it off is not an excuse.*

*This is most important because as soon as she got on that bus i.e. away from your inappropriate wandering hands, she expressed that she was exhausted after a long day at work, froze when you did what you did and didn’t have the wherewithal or energy to tell you how unacceptable it was for fear of hurting your feelings and/or being labelled as aggressive/overreacting. I know this feeling well as I have very often experienced and felt the same thing (so has she in the past, in case you were wondering). This is why I spoke for her. This is why I told you it was not an acceptable thing to act so intimately with a person you had never met. This is why I told you that she had said nothing to you for fear that she would cause you offence. In doing so, I was speaking for the many of us who have to put up with this shit everyday.

I imagine you will go home and talk about the angry busybody black woman who had the temerity to question your right to touch another woman’s hair. Let it be known that I spoke to you politely, with a smile and no discernible anger in my voice. But trust me when I tell you that I was angry. Remember this the next time you feel like complimenting someone in such a demeaning, inappropriate way. We are not pets whose fur you can ruffle at will. We are not children. We are women, just like you, who hold the right to go about our daily business without fear of being touched intimately by a stranger.

AIBU?

My dd gets targetted by chinese people in particular because her hair is blonde. In certain areas theyve been known to squeal with excitement and shout their friends over. Is she being targetted because of her race ?? No

The difference is that white culture and white ideas of beauty are dominant the world over. Skin lightening cream is used heavily across Africa and Asia, black women feel pressured to straighten their hair to fit in at work. Beauty salons and fashion shops are plastered with white models. Chinese women try and get their legs lenghtened to be as tall as Western white women.

So when a Chinese woman touches your dd's blonde hair, she is doing it in deference to white superiority. But when a white woman touches a black woman's hair, she's doing it black women's bodies have been fetishised by society and media to the point that people think they hav the right to touch them, even if it's just their hair.

@Havaina

You have a fucked up view of the world.

What happened here is not by definition racism. It isnt just because you feel like it may be subtly. It isnt. It really

Keep repeating it tootedtospeak you may just convince yourself.

Tang

You have a fucked up view of the world.

What a brilliant rebuttal. 👏

So when a Chinese woman touches your dd's blonde hair, she is doing it in deference to white superiority. But when a white woman touches a black woman's hair, she's doing it black women's bodies have been fetishised by society and media to the point that people think they hav the right to touch them, even if it's just their hair.

she’s doing it in deference to white superiority
What a pile of utter shite

Brilliant rebuttals all round 👏

What’s all the hand clapping for? Your post was pure nonsense.

I think we need to stop making black people into victims.

We all come across people who are a bit odd / struggle with bounderies / have foot in mouth disease.

Everyone at some point has had that 'did that just happen ?? ' moment.

Looking for racism in every little idiot we all come across at some point in our lives is frankly bollocks. And to blame for people rolling their eyes and not taking things seriously when actual incidents of racism occur.

Touching hair that's different isnt a race issue. It's a boundery stepping issue.

The current incident in America where the white cop shot and killed an innocent black guy who was sat in his own apartment. Then took days to be arrested and is currently out on bail is most definitely a race issue.

Because the world knows that if a black guy had walked into a white womans apartment and killed her he wouldnt be sat at home on his own sofa right now.

While I agree, it does feel like the OP was asking for congratulations, I do think it’s raised an incredibly important subject. MN (and wider society) often denies racism and stereotyping perhaps because it’s uncomfortable to admit. We should be listening and looking at how to change.

@Haivana

Well others gave already picked up and reposted your utter garbage and disgusting vitriol. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think we need to stop making black people into victims

Jesus wept.

Tang

What do you find disgusting and vitriolic? Let's go through it?

MN (and wider society) often denies racism and stereotyping perhaps because it’s uncomfortable to admit

This is exactly what it boils down to.

Nobody is denying racism. I hate racism abhor it and do believe that some black women and children will have had their hair touched totally out of curiosity due to their race. But in the example given I feel it is someone trying to create racism in a situation where it is not and I hate that too.

It seems so pointless arguing with people who can't see beyond the end of their noses. No wonder most black women on Mumsnet tend not to engage with this shit and give racists the satisfaction.

I think we need to stop making black people into victims.

This is just another way of denying what black people are actively saying their experiences are.

So when a Chinese woman touches your dd's blonde hair, she is doing it in deference to white superiority. But when a white woman touches a black woman's hair, she's doing it black women's bodies have been fetishised by society and media to the point that people think they hav the right to touch them, even if it's just their hair.

You can’t see how fucked up that is?

Nobody is denying racism.

Nobody is denying overt racism.

A number of people are denying:

White privilege exists
Covert racism exists
Unconscious bias exists
The scenario in the OP was unacceptable largely because of historic fetishisation of black people
Black people are regularly "othered"
All of the above are just as damaging and in some cases more damaging than covert racism

You can’t see how fucked up that is?

It is fucked up, but it's true, sadly. Why can't you articulate your concerns?

This thread is a crock of shit and should be deleted.

NOONE IS DENYING RACISIM.

Hmm, well when I was a child, adults/kids were constantly touching my hair (afro). And I mean constantly.

And then you had the kids who were wanting to touch my skin, because apparently it was soft.

None of it was meant maliciously, but, looking back, it was a bit creepy, you know; as if their curiousity should be quenched at the expense of my personal space?

And sometimes, it was awkward; especially if you've got a group of over-enthusiastics gawping at you.

I couldn't escape from it; even the peeps in church were in on it😂

My DC tells me that children at school always want to touch her hair, but at least most of them ask her 😊

I think that alot of people saying it's not a racism thing is because they wouldn't do something like that. They wouldnt think 'I can do this because this person is black and therefore subordinate to me'.

I think they're saying its not racist because they're not inherently racist. They don't think that way so they find it difficult to see it from a racist point of view.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.

For me personally, it's not a racist issue because this is more about respecting someone as a human being. No colour comes into it for me.

But for black people who have suffered for a long time at the hands of white people, thinking that black people are objects to be owned and sold, to be touched or harmed as they deem fit, to be discriminated against just because of their skin colour... for them, this is a sensitive issue and for them, it is another example of mainly white people still trying to assert their supposed superiority.

Have I got that right @Havaina?

Because it’s simply not true. Not sure how much more you want me to articulate myself. Because when I lived in Asia no one touched my hair out of deference because I was white. They did it because I was different. Yeah, it was annoying when they pulled it when I was walking quickly but I didn’t call them out for racism.

I also don’t have a fetish for black womens hair

I personally would ask about someone’s hair that I admired and if I could touch it, because that’s called BOUNDARIES. Not racism.

Good enough?

@havaina having lived in Asia, I can assure you the Chinese do not defer to ‘white superiority’ - on the contrary, many Chinese regard their own race as the superior one.