To the two ladies at Dingwall Road bus stop in Croydon at 16.15pm today ...

[ArbitersCarbiters]

It is never acceptable for you (without permission) to reach out and touch a black woman’s hair.

How would you feel if a complete stranger came up to you on the street, complimented your hair cut and then immediately reached out their hands to run it through your hair?

You crossed an unacceptable boundary in doing so.

In case you were still wondering:
(A) One of you being 72 years of age is not an excuse.
(B) You thinking it is beautiful and that your actions were meant as a compliment is not an excuse.
(C) The owner of said hair smiling and laughing it off is not an excuse.*

*This is most important because as soon as she got on that bus i.e. away from your inappropriate wandering hands, she expressed that she was exhausted after a long day at work, froze when you did what you did and didn’t have the wherewithal or energy to tell you how unacceptable it was for fear of hurting your feelings and/or being labelled as aggressive/overreacting. I know this feeling well as I have very often experienced and felt the same thing (so has she in the past, in case you were wondering). This is why I spoke for her. This is why I told you it was not an acceptable thing to act so intimately with a person you had never met. This is why I told you that she had said nothing to you for fear that she would cause you offence. In doing so, I was speaking for the many of us who have to put up with this shit everyday.

I imagine you will go home and talk about the angry busybody black woman who had the temerity to question your right to touch another woman’s hair. Let it be known that I spoke to you politely, with a smile and no discernible anger in my voice. But trust me when I tell you that I was angry. Remember this the next time you feel like complimenting someone in such a demeaning, inappropriate way. We are not pets whose fur you can ruffle at will. We are not children. We are women, just like you, who hold the right to go about our daily business without fear of being touched intimately by a stranger.

AIBU?

I wonder if anyone has ever seen a thread like this - directed to some random but specific person - and thought shit that's me

I bet a few have thought “shit, I do that” though. Clearly a lot of posters think the actions of the two women was absolutely fine.

Is it OK to touch a white woman's hair like this? Or an Asian woman? Just wondering because this used to happen to me all the time and I'm not black so thought I should ask for clarification.

NoFuckingRoomOnMyBroom oh good, another poster who has run out of arguments and actually thinks they’re ever so witty and original with that gem.

Jog on.

SoupDragon

I agree. I think that posts like this help some people to reflect a bit. OTOH they also get people being a bit defensive

Racecardriver

Do you think it's OK? Do you accept that if you don't think it's OK, that black women, to whom it happens more are allowed to think it's not OK.

Wonderful

A good old race row warming up for a Friday night.

Now I wonder where the OP has gone...

It is never acceptable for you (without permission) to reach out and touch a black woman’s hair.

don't get why the words "black" or " woman" are in this sentence

My hair is almost 5ft long, I constantly get people touching it, combing their fingers through it and actually wrapping it over their head or around their neck like a wig or scarf!! People have serious boundary issues when a feature is out of THEIR ordinary.

I think everyone on this thread agrees that you shouldn't touch a strangers hair. However the op seems to be making it that the ladies thought they somehow had a right to touch a black woman's hair.
Yet we have had several white women saying they have had the same experience so how do we know that is true?

I was only half listening but wasn't a remarkably similar story on the radio this morning, I didn't know that touching other people's hair was a thing and now twice in one day I come across stories of older women doing it to black women.

What a bizarre coincidence

You sound exhausting

FAIRYLIZ I took it that the op was pointing out that it is difficult for women of colour to stand up to this type of interference feeling instead it’s just something they need to put up with.

I spoke to them before getting on the same bus as the woman.

On the bus, I apologised to the woman in question if she thought that I was speaking out of turn on her behalf, but she said thank you and that she was simply too shocked and tired to say the same thing, having had this happen to her so many times before.

In my view (as a black woman who has been subjected to the same), it was important to mention that she was black. Also, see second paragraph which hopefully shows that they (as white women) would probably also find it unacceptable.

For the avoidance of doubt, I also do not think it is acceptable to do the same to children - I would often tell people off for doing the same to my DC. Or to pets (albeit perhaps for different reasons).

However, if you’re happy to have this done to you, your children and/or your pets, that’s completely your prerogative. I would just think (or hope) that people would actually think to ask first.

I don’t see a problem in sharing it on the internet (as I don’t see this as different to any other thread on Mumsnet). I’ve mentioned no names nor given such a detailed description of any of the individuals involved that they would be immediately identifiable (other than by the handful of people in the immediate vicinity, who would already be aware of what happened). If the woman whose hair was touched reads this and recognises herself, then I hope she’ll see that I’ve accurately represented what happened and what was said (including between us on the bus). If the women in question who touched her hair without permission read this and recognise themselves, then I can only hope that next time they think it through before acting in the same way.

I've been in a situation in an area where there were no other whites within about a hundred miles, and have had literally dozens and dozens of people pinching my skin.

I didn't stop them, but i did request they asked first

Ooh now you’re getting aggressive.

You know the square root of hee haw buckshee about it, because you’re far too busy insisting that the black women on here who have explained their own experiences are wrong.

Maybe that broom will take you into the real world one day. Probably not though eh?

Blatant racists are always called out for their despicable views. It’s the subtle, “low level” casual racists who cause the most pain and distress.

Think on.

Fairyliz

A quick google will (if you don't believe me) reveal that black people having their hair touched is such a thing, here and elsewhere that people have blogged about it, written articles, made computer games about it. Solange Knowles had a song on her latest album called 'don't Touch My Hair'

Bloody hell, coldrain, you're tolerant. I would have thumped them.

People need to leave other people alone as a default.

Article about black hair

DD would go fucking nuts. She hates strangers touching her, or even the parents of friends.

@WorraLiberty

Wonderful

A good old race row warming up for a Friday night

Reckon you're bang on the money there.

Bit disappointed that no one has picked up on the 16.15pm in the title though, usually this would have been a good derailment to have discussed that instead.

It’s unaaceptable to touch anyone’s hair without their permission, of course.

But, by god, OP, you are pompous.

NorrisButter
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Fairyliz

Please, do the planet a favour and read about white privilege.

I am being serious. If you don't know where to start, read anything by Reni Eddo-Lodge.

fairyliz said it's really sad the OP turned this into a race issue..."
A) she didn't "turn it" into one - it is one.
B) sad for who? Sad for you as a white person so you don't have to accept that racism exists? It does. So you don't have to acknowledge that these every day acts of micro-aggression take place the whole time in a black woman's life? They do. Sad because it was a bit of an inconvenience to YOU in YOUR life and you take it personally when someone mentions racism?

By the way, white privilege doesn't mean you are necessarily ignorant, or a bad person, or should feel guilty. It DOES mean you should be aware that things happen daily to black women that you as a white women have no idea about and have never EVER had to experience. You have an advantage in life because you never even have to think about such things happening to you because of the colour of your skin. Thats the definition of privilege. (And no it doesn't count to say someone touched your red curls or whatever).

If you don't understand then educate yourself. Be honest with yourself - do you actually know any black women? If you do, do you LISTEN to their experiences without trying to pipe up with a response, solution or justification? I am a white women and I accept that this sort of incident has never and will never happen to me because I am lucky and have white privilege.

As women I presume you all know the micro aggressions we experience from men, catcalling, being eyed up, oggled at, groped, dismissed, talked over, patronised, made to feel uncomfortable... and worse - often on a daily basis if you are out and about in a busy city. Would you tolerate a man saying "no that's not a misogyny issue, that just affects ALL people"?? Surely not!?! Would you deny there is such a thing as male privilege? Surely not.

So use your understanding as females here and accept your privilege as white people.

I agree OP. And I think you've put it so well. It IS a race issue and it's intrusive.

I hope those ladies listened. Even if they meant it kindly, they are one of many who dont even stop to ask or realise how uncomfortable it is.

Why does it make whether the lady was black, white or bright green?

So what that she's what you deem 'pompous'? Is she wrong? Should she just shut up about things that upset her?

It's really really interesting to me how defensive this post has made some people. They can't wait to say it never happens, it never happened, it happens to other people, it's not about race or the objectification of black people.

It's ages since I've been on AIBU and now I see why