Pansexual? AIBU to not understand how this isn't different to Bi?

[GoatWoman]

I really don't understand this new phenomena and I feel completely ignorant.
In my day (80's - 90's), if not having a sexual preference you termed yourself bisexual. Not that anybody has to classify themselves at all.

But recently I hear more of pan-sexual. What on earth does it mean? The only explanation I've heard is that they choose the mind over biology. Isn't that what everyone does?

@BertrandRussell

You seem to be angry in my direction and I don't know why. I'm pretty sure that we broadly agree!

There are gender norms, and there have been in all societies since the beginning of time. They change as societies change. There have been people who don't conform to those norms. To say that somebody didn't conform to what was considered normal for their gender isn't a bad thing IMO, whether that's that a duke who likes to wear a dress or Malala Yousafzai daring to get an education. As you say, thank goodness for the women who didn't conform who won us hard won rights that we have today.

Women who don’t “conform” are still women, not men. And non conforming doesn’t affect their sexual orientation, or have I misunderstood?

Newsflash: nobody cares

Well, I suppose people do like to know what their sexuality is and what to call it.

But if they then get into the habit of announcing their sexuality to all and sundry then I'd agree, who cares.

There are gender norms, and there have been in all societies since the beginning of time. They change as societies change. There have been people who don't conform to those norms

Yes but you are holding us back from change and failing to acknowledge that many of the norms you think people are not conforming to do not exist anymore. Women who don't wear dresses or like pink or have long hair are not gender non conforming in any sense. Men who get manicures and work as nurses or nannies are not gender non conforming. They are just as representative of their male or female genders as any other male or female.

The more you insist people are non conforming to stereotypes, the more you reinforce those stereotypes.

Surely being "non conforming" is still allowing others to dictate what you do. You are still respecting their boundaries even if it is just to place yourself on the opposite side of them.

If you really don't give a monkeys do whatever you wish to do and pay no heed to whether it is in line with, or goes against, a stereotype.

Nah, non conforming is like pan sexual, the only reason for the label is for people to claim "I'm so much interesting and modern than you, look at meee, I'm a woman with short hair who wears pants from the mens section, aren't I so special and non conforming?"

Why should I?You and the people like you pushing this nonsense are reinforcing those gender norms that people have spent decades trying to push back. I object to you personally talking about gender non conforming in such an insulting way, and I will tell you so. You should stop doing it

I'm not trying to push anything. I'm certainly not trying to be insulting. I can't control any nuances you want to put onto my words. I object most strongly to being told I should stop "doing it" when what I'm doing is acknowledging things that exist. It might be shit and it might need changing, but I can't see a meaningful conversation happening unless all involved reach some kind of shared understanding (not necessity opinions) of a situation.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to deliver a workshop that I consider to be meaningful feminist work. I'll be offline for a few hours but we're covering subjects that are important to me and sound like they're important to you, so I hope we will be able to continue in a respectful way later.

Cross posted. I thought "they change as societies change" covered what you think I didn't cover, @TheWinterofOurDiscountTentsMk2 .

Please be assured that I don't think gender norms today are the same as they have been historically, nor do I think they are the same in all cultures today. I do still think that gender norms exist, and that we have much more work to do to make them less harmful.

I'm not sure if you aren't following me or just arguing something different, but wasn't it you that said the following:

By non-gender conforming, I mean behave in a way other than one might expect is inconsistent with their gender (and/or sex). So a "Butch" woman, a man who chooses to wear make-up, or a person who chooses to do things (and I'm avoiding sexuality again here as much as possible) traditionally associated with another gender.

A "butch woman" is not gender nonconforming in any sense. She is conforming to the gender of woman because women can be and are all different. If you claim she is gender non conforming, who or what IS gender conforming? And how?

It's truly insulting.

Just means they will sleep with anyone.

The world gone crazy with all these extra labels.

When in reality there are two sexes and everything else is just personality

Yes ! This ! Any other micro sub division of who or what you fancy or who or what you hope fancies you is just obsessive navel gazing and an attempt to be special and very, very teenage.

I object most strongly to being told I should stop "doing it" when what I'm doing is acknowledging things that exist. It might be shit and it might need changing, but I can't see a meaningful conversation happening unless all involved reach some kind of shared understanding (not necessity opinions) of a situation.

Let's try replacing sex stereotypes with another stereotype and see if you can understand why it's offensive.

Let's say that there is a stereotype that people from Belgium are terrible drivers. If I keep saying things like "I would be happy to date Belgians regardless of whether they are a good driver or not" or "This is my new boyfriend from Belgium but he doesn't conform to the usual stereotypes because he is a good driver" I would be very much reinforcing that stereotype.

It's the same with men and women. We should just forget all this gender BS and move on rather than reinforcing the idea that men typically do or wear X/Y/Z and women do or wear A/B/C. There might have been strict gender norms in the past which have oppressed women for millennia, but I would hope as a society we are ready to move on from them now.

PS apologies if this is offensive to anyone from Belgium. I didn't want to use a real stereotype and this one is made up as far as I am aware!

OK I've just googled and it turns out that there is a stereotype that Belgians are bad drivers. It was unintentional I was going to say people from Timbuktu originally but was worried it might sound racist!

Is anyone truly gender conforming 100% of the time?

I like hair and make-up and dresses but hate glitter and pink and frills. I love gaming and computers and DIY but hate sports and aggression. I challenge any man to beat at me IKEA putting togethering but I'm not remotely maternal and would rather poke my own eyes out with a rusty spork than sit and discuss babies.

I'm still female. I'm quite content being a female who mostly wears jeans, sometimes wears make-up and is slightly perturbed by strange children.

". If you claim she is gender non conforming, who or what IS gender conforming? And how?"

This. Feminists have fought for years to overturn the "women are pink and fluffy" stereotype. And just when it looked as if we might be starting to get somewhere we let this bloody Trojan Horse in.

I'm so glad I'm too old and dull for all this...

Hey @Downtheroadfirstonleft ! It's all inclusive!

I'm so glad I'm too old and dull for all this...

Me too, Down.

Though someone on here did a marvellous parody of "coming out to your parents as demisexual."

"Mum, Dad, I've got some news for you and I'm not sure how you'll take it. You see, I know how much you were looking forward to widening your social circle by meeting a different bloke at breakfast every morning during the long vacation. And Mum, I know you were looking forward to sharing all those rights of passage with me, like my first trip to a GUM clinic, and so forth. But I'm afraid it's not going to happen..." Pause. Swallows hard. Looks down nervously and starts to pick fingernails. "You see, I'm... Demisexual. I'm going to be holding out till I meet someone I feel an emotional connection with, and even then I'm planning on waiting a month or so before we have sex..."

"Oh darling, this is a bit of a shock, but we'll always love you for who you are."

Just been catching up on the discussion - I think I’m rapidly becoming too old & dull for this too. This thread has also given me an unfair hankering for nice cookware that I can’t afford.

Just one for the personality preference vs orientation - I have a friend who describes herself as ‘sapiosexual’, ie attracted to people with a high intellect. Is that a subset of pan, ie their maleness or femaleness is secondary to their IQ - or is it a bisexual person being a bit pompous when describing their dating preferences?

Been reading Germaine Greer lately which has made me reconsider my whole view on the innate-ness of sexual orientation, but that’s a whole other kettle of worms.

Also, trousers from the men’s section are great! So much more durable and with nice deep pockets.

men's clothes

I think they are willing to sleep with those pretending to be women and those pretending to be men

For me it's about being attracted to a wide range of people; not limiting yourself to one gender, ethnicity, body type, age bracket, etc

ethnicity, body type, age bracket
What have those got to do with your sexuality? And the gender thing... it’s been done already. It’s called bisexuality.
Nothing you have said describes how pan is different from bi except a complete lack of discernment, it seems.
Used to be called being a bit of a slapper!