Not to leave my kids under these circumstances...

[CantankerousCamel]

2 years ago we visited my brother in the spring, he lives a 4 hour drive away from me and I was around 7 months pregnant

Things were a bit odd while we were there, I’ll try and give a run down

1. He had a long, drawn out and pointless ‘debate’ with me about my NC status with our father, I explained that Father had raised his fist to me and shouted at me for the last time and Brothers defence of this was ‘well he never actually hit us so that’s okay’ I explained that when men shout at me I think they’re going to hit me and he said ‘you can’t say that, you can say you think they might hit you but you’re bringing it upon yourself because you are expecting it’

There was another conversation about sexual harassment at work where he basically said if the woman has given a firm no to being harassed then she should be disciplined for involving management as its embarrassing for the Male.

Anyway.

He has two dogs, one is a large pointer who doesn’t like children, so much that the dog growled at the children when they walked into rooms and snapped at both the boys (then 4 and 6)

When she snapped at Ds2 (4) we were all sitting on a couch, DB was nearest the door and the dog, DH, DS1 and I were further away on a different couch.

Ds2 looked really shocked when the dog snapped at him and looked at me. DB said (remember that Ds2 is 4 years old) that if he (Ds2) didn’t like the dog, he could just leave and pointed to the front door. So Ds2 is in a strange house, has just had a dog snap st him while he walks past it and now has his uncle shouting and screaming at him.

At this point I stood up, pulled Ds2 towards Me and held him, he was literally shaking.

DB told me I was ‘pandering to him’ and ‘this is just what he wants, attention’ And when I told him to stop he started shouting ‘what do you want me to do Ds2? Have the dog put down? Is that what you want? You want the dog dead? So I basically told him to leave us alone repeatedly until he left the room.

He came back in and again started shouting at us but again (whilst cradling ds2) I just told him repeatedly to leave us alone.

He did apologise an hour later, but as you can imagine, Ds2 has compartmentalised all the fear and shame he felt, into a fear of that particular dog.

Now my brother is going away for 2 weeks in the summer and my mum who lives abroad has arranged to spend 2 weeks at his house with me and the kids.

I did tell her that you wasn’t sure Ds2 would be okay with that but I would ask.

He is still absolutely not okay with it and so I said to mum that I would drive our caravan up there, stay for a long weekend, then drive back with the boys (I have to work) and come up for another long weekend. Apparently this isn’t good enough and she refuses to be there if we aren’t there for the entire two weeks then she will be on her own and that’s not good enough.

Then she said she would have the boys herself and I could come and work and the boys would have to get used to the dog.

AIBU to not send them? They would be really scared and it just doesn’t feel right to me.

I feel I’ve done my best in saying I’ll take the caravan and we will stay for half the time, especially considering all the driving but nothing seems good enough and she (and my brother) are now angry with me

I have known a lot of children who start to shake and cry when shouted at because the next thing is to be beaten.

I myself have have racing heart and shake when shouted at, for as far back as i can remember.
I am more able to control it nowadays, but do you see, OP, where the shouting can be the same as violence?

Violence involves physical force. That’s what the word means

You have seriously toxic family. You brother sound hideous.

Why the fuck are you still involving your kids around them?

I’m actually shocked at the ops posts and that doesn’t happen a lot. Fuck me some seriously fucked up families ...

They all sound like a nasty lot.

Your father is aggressive, brother is goody and confrontational and mother is patronising and controlling.

Do you have other people around your child? If so, I'd NC the lot of them as they clearly don't have best interests at heart. If they did they'd keep dog in separate room or sit with ds2 and explain to him. By being nasty to your son your brother has shown he's a lot like his father.

Not even to mention his sexist views. Your Mum is convincing you to do what she wants, not what would make the kids happy. That's not what a doting Grandma would do.

I bet he was the favourite when you were younger and he probably still is.

Violence involves physical force. That’s what the word means

Not necessarily. Emotional violence can trigger the release of the same stress hormones as physical violence. It may not draw blood or leave bruises, but still teaches the body - and therefore the brain - to react in the same fright-or-flight manner as physical violence. It can also result in the same emotional withdrawal as physical violence.

Emotional violence is just as real snd just as much potential to be just as much damaging as physical violence.

Do not gaslight yourself. Protect yourself and your dc.

No, the word violence by definition involves physical force. I’m not suggesting intimidation and aggression aren’t harmful, but that’s my line.

You hate to remember that Brother grew up in the same household I did, shouting was all we knew. I won’t have him be aggressive at the children (they haven’t seen him in closed quarters since the last visit and probably won’t again) and I have reduced contact to make sure we are not affected by it. But I’m not going to completely cut him off for being a blundering idiot who doesn’t understand how damaging aggressively shouting at people is, I know exactly why he’s like that. I lived it too.

As for my mother, she’s here twice a year, she’s my mum. I don’t want to cut her off completely either. I know that isn’t what some of you want to hear but it’s the truth. We will still see her, however little in a way that doesn’t cause us issues.

The boys obviously don’t know she’s a nightmare

I understand why you want to see them. Just make sure you don't compromise your own well being because of them.

Don't cut them off if you don't want to, that's fair enough. But see them on your terms, not theirs. Don't let their stress-inducing behaviour (call it what you will) be in control of you and your babies.

I am seeing them on my terms, hence sending my list of non-free days to my mum, I want to avoid anymore bullshit like this.

But even that got me snarled at here!!! I don’t think that’s okay. I am going to continue asserting boundaries. To mum (she’s read the message and not replied) me telling her where I’m going to be will be a real issue, she expects us to wait until she tells us where she’s going and for us to simply fall into place around that.

As a matter of interest OP, have you ever spoken to a counsellor about this?

What does your DH think about your family? Is he happy to be in contact with them?

If I started unpacking that can of worms I would need quite a lot of time and space to deal with all the stuff I’ve buried. I can’t go there yet. Maybe when the kids are older and I am able to really focus on me a bit more.

My mum being a bit controlling is not even scratching the surface. I need to keep things in for now, I don’t have the space to remember it all, the flash backs are hard enough

DH is happy that we aren’t seeing B again obviously but he has tried to make effort to get the kids and my dad together, unfortunately dad isn’t interested in spending time with them (would have been at a soft play or something)

Dad has never been violent to me but he is horrifically aggressive, think holding hand in a fist while he screams in your face in front of your infant sort of aggression. Totally unhinged.

‘I’m quite sure will be fine, Rosy gives hate before love but there’s lots of love there if you work for it’

Reply, simple, "I’m also quite sure will be finee as we will not be anywhere near your dog. We do not need your dog's love or anything else."

Hi Cantakeorous sorry you thought that was a snarl.....I worded my post badly I see....have also lots of crap to manage myself and although that is no excuse - ...I apologise as was definitely not meant the way it came out... I get the having to keep the lid on things..

I think if we can just find a way that she will accept our family dynamic (including us wanting to have some of the summer holiday to ourselves/planned irrespective of her) then that will be best.

CantankerousCamel I don't think she will 'accept it' but you can insist.

Is this next summer or are you living somewhere other than the U.K.?

Yes next summer. She’s already started planning exactly where she will be and where, which means we miss opportunities because we don’t want to be away while she is here. So I am booking things in now. It is also better for my anxiety and means we can pay off festival tickets and things

Why on earth has your DH tried to get your children in contact with your father?

Why are you both not shielding your children from these people?

He thinks that children should know their grandparents. I agree, I don’t think we should give any energy to that man and I hope I never see him again but DH didnt want him to die and the kids never know him.

Haven’t RTFT but is your brother alright? He sounds like he’s off his fucking rocker.

He isn’t. He struggles so much with working with people and with stress. In some respects he’s a really lovely guy, will help me out when he can etc. But in other ways he’s just developed some really awful ways of communicating with people and I totally understand why. I can handle that but I won’t have it around the kids. My main aim in life is to not fuck them up.

It does read like that’s something he learnt off your/his father. Has he tried to change the way he communicates or is this armour that he refuses to give up? I’ve family members with similar sort of attitudes, not easy to be around them and children.

Sorry my first post read like I was being nasty. I understand it did, no excuse for it really.

It’s okay, please don’t feel you need to apologies, I really appreciate the support so thank you.

That was what was weird about the conversation he instigated with me RE my father. He basically asked me why I didn’t see him, when I said I was afraid when he raised his voice and it made me think he was going to hurt me, he said I had no right to feel that way because he had never hurt me. So I explained that when men shout at women, we get a flight or fight response because we think we might die. It was so weird, he then said I was bringing negativity into myself from men by expecting it. So I pointed out that a man not liking my driving, who calls me a ‘fucking fat cunt’ is going to scare me and this has nothing to do with my behaviour and everything to do wirh them. That I didn’t think men realised how terrifying they are, just with words.

He continued to state that it was my fault for having the fear rather than men’s fault for being scary and got really, really quite animated and upset.

It was like he wanted me to overreact and be negative towards him to show why ‘men had to get like that around me’ or whatever. I really kept my cool but looking back, he was defending his own behaviour as much as dads, stating that if he is not violent physically, it’s acceptable for him to be verbally aggressive because I have no right to fear violence because he’s never hit me.

He’s a strange man, I don’t see him very much