Not to leave my kids under these circumstances...

[CantankerousCamel]

2 years ago we visited my brother in the spring, he lives a 4 hour drive away from me and I was around 7 months pregnant

Things were a bit odd while we were there, I’ll try and give a run down

1. He had a long, drawn out and pointless ‘debate’ with me about my NC status with our father, I explained that Father had raised his fist to me and shouted at me for the last time and Brothers defence of this was ‘well he never actually hit us so that’s okay’ I explained that when men shout at me I think they’re going to hit me and he said ‘you can’t say that, you can say you think they might hit you but you’re bringing it upon yourself because you are expecting it’

There was another conversation about sexual harassment at work where he basically said if the woman has given a firm no to being harassed then she should be disciplined for involving management as its embarrassing for the Male.

Anyway.

He has two dogs, one is a large pointer who doesn’t like children, so much that the dog growled at the children when they walked into rooms and snapped at both the boys (then 4 and 6)

When she snapped at Ds2 (4) we were all sitting on a couch, DB was nearest the door and the dog, DH, DS1 and I were further away on a different couch.

Ds2 looked really shocked when the dog snapped at him and looked at me. DB said (remember that Ds2 is 4 years old) that if he (Ds2) didn’t like the dog, he could just leave and pointed to the front door. So Ds2 is in a strange house, has just had a dog snap st him while he walks past it and now has his uncle shouting and screaming at him.

At this point I stood up, pulled Ds2 towards Me and held him, he was literally shaking.

DB told me I was ‘pandering to him’ and ‘this is just what he wants, attention’ And when I told him to stop he started shouting ‘what do you want me to do Ds2? Have the dog put down? Is that what you want? You want the dog dead? So I basically told him to leave us alone repeatedly until he left the room.

He came back in and again started shouting at us but again (whilst cradling ds2) I just told him repeatedly to leave us alone.

He did apologise an hour later, but as you can imagine, Ds2 has compartmentalised all the fear and shame he felt, into a fear of that particular dog.

Now my brother is going away for 2 weeks in the summer and my mum who lives abroad has arranged to spend 2 weeks at his house with me and the kids.

I did tell her that you wasn’t sure Ds2 would be okay with that but I would ask.

He is still absolutely not okay with it and so I said to mum that I would drive our caravan up there, stay for a long weekend, then drive back with the boys (I have to work) and come up for another long weekend. Apparently this isn’t good enough and she refuses to be there if we aren’t there for the entire two weeks then she will be on her own and that’s not good enough.

Then she said she would have the boys herself and I could come and work and the boys would have to get used to the dog.

AIBU to not send them? They would be really scared and it just doesn’t feel right to me.

I feel I’ve done my best in saying I’ll take the caravan and we will stay for half the time, especially considering all the driving but nothing seems good enough and she (and my brother) are now angry with me

Well, she can believe whatever she wants. You're not her fairy godmother, you don't have to make all her dreams come true. You're jumping through hoops when you don't need to.

CantankerousCamel
"she believes that as she’s come ‘all this way’ we need to be available for her when she requests it"

This is in your hands, you can tell her no, you are not free for XYZ, and you are free for ABC. Has she booked already? Tell her before she gets o the plane.

Tell her you need to talk about the visit because her suggestions so far don't work for you.

"That is my boundary and it’s tsken me a lot of assertion to get it."

It is very good you are having these discussions and are aware of your boundaries.

Just remember that your time is precious, with the kids, without them, just be clear with her before she gets on the plane, her choice to visit but she has to negotiate the details with you.

Well your db hasnt fallen far from the tree.
It is your job to advocate for your kids. Do so.

You've done a phenomenal job so far with boundaries.

Please know that whilst you've boundaried your front garden that you should leave the back one unfenced. It may be long and an ardous job but you've made the start. Please continue it for your DC. Break the cycle for them

Completely agree with everyone here. Your family are bullies and have made you their whipping girl. It would be so easy for your mum to ring you to see when your DC are off school before booking, but she prefers to lord it over you and make YOU fit in with HER plans, however inconvenient to you.

You sound like a great mum. From your own experience, you know that your kids need to grow up feeling safe, feeling loved, and confident that you will always keep them from harm.

Being bullied into going to your brother's to suit someone else undermines all that. They'll feel that their number one defender is ALLOWING an outsider's needs to trump their own. Do not go, and bollocks to any consequences. These people have never treated you well and it's about time they saw you standing up to them. IME people stop trying to walk all over you as much when they see that you won't take it any more.

On another note, I'd be bending over backwards to ensure that DS2's fear of this dog doesn't become a phobia of ALL dogs. Can you get him some sort of specialised counselling for people who are scared of dogs?

Your children, your choice - your relatives sound quite selfish. Your brother sounds horrible and I would be NC him! I would not go to your DB house and tell your mum she can drive 4 hours to visit you if she wants to see the kids. If she doesn’t like it then that’s her problem - you and your kids come first and you’ve done nothing wrong. Your priority is to protect yourself and your children.

We actually have a dog, she’s gentle and sweet and they adore her. As does my 18 month old.

So no major dog fear, more a fear of my brother and his dog.

Brother actually spent the following text

‘I’m quite sure will be fine, Rosy gives hate before love but there’s lots of love there if you work for it’

I’m not sure how you can possibly react to that, his dog can’t bite my children then expect them to offer love. My littlest one has always had a dog and believes that is her dog.

So she is likely to go and say hello to dogs, she is gentle and kind with animals and obviously we never leave them alone together, but we have to work harder until she’s at the point whereby she will understand more the difference between dogs. I don’t want to have to do that for two weeks and wouldn’t choose to have her around any dogs other than ours.

I just don’t think we will be able to relax at all with other dogs around, particularly when one has form for attacking children.

Yanbu at all. I wouldn’t allow my children to be terrorised by the dog. Or to believe that adults needs always come before their happiness and safe. As the saying goes, no is a complete sentence.

Tbh what has most pissed me off is that my other brother (who I never see) got out of the massive drive because he doesn’t like the brother whose house it is, despite that brother being in turkey, which was an acceptable excuse in my mother’s eyes, yet my children being afraid of an actual dog remaining in the house was not an acceptable excuse

You do realise that your brother is abusive and your mother controlling?

I wouldn’t be making any attempt to see either of them ever.

What does your DH think?

One of my dogs doesn't like children, I wouldn't want children in my house when I wasn't there to make sure all were safe! You are not being unreasonable!

don’t see my father as he is violent
I don’t see my other brother because he is violent

And yet you see your Mum who is equally abusive, just in a different way, emotional and not physical? Emotional abusive is damaging and is actually more effective at controlling someone than physical abuse.

Your dm doesn’t appear to be able to control the brother you don’t see... so ‘accept’ his excuses. However she is aware she can control you... even if partially. So she does. Your choice. you are establishing boundaries, just need to stay strong

Stop tying yourself in knots over this, Yanbu.

Don't go, certainly don't allow your children to stay there without you.

Your brother and mum can make whatever arrangements they please,but you and the children won't be involved in them.

You need to put your children first, not abusive and controlling brother and mother.

You know when it all seems so complicated? This brother, that brother mum this that the other?

No need. If your dm comes "all this way" and it isn't convenient then she'll have to learn a lesson that she needs to learn - not to impose her plans on others. Generous be buggered.

Db with the dog. Total fuckwit. I'd waste not even a moment on his justification about hate before love. No more engaging in any of it.

"Mum. We aren't coming up to dB with the dog. Please remember why you aren't welcome in my house and do not cause any further damage to our relationship"

"dB you have a badly trained, nervous and unhappy dog. We will not be visiting nor discussing this further."

I have already said no, I’m not ‘tied in knots’

I’m just talking about it. I’ve just sent mother our summer dates, festivals and holidays we’ve booked.

I then told her I’d like to book more excursions so could she please inform me of when she’s here ASAP.

That’s a pretty good compromise I think

bloody hell why are you sending her your calender dates ...what if she decides to come to it all! I get on ok with my mum but I control my calender noone else....
You are trying to be helpful and reasonable and hoping she will be to....but I will eat my hat if she does just based on this one thread alone....

I can see you've had to make massive boundaries with the other 2 members of your family but your DM is equally unreasonable even if she isn't violent.....
as someone says below you need fences all around your house....and with all you've had to deal with that seems so true..

I’m sending her our holiday dates so she can book around them!!!

She’s not going to come camping in our pop top caravan, don’t worry, she bloody hates camping

I don’t see my other brother because he is violent
I think this brother with the dog is also violent. Just not directly. He told your ds then 4 that he was happy for him to be bitten by the dog. In the text you just received, he’s once again told you that the dog is free to do as if chooses, which will include biting your children and you should just give it love and all will be well.

Your mother is siding with your brother against you by putting you in this position. She is also telling you that she doesn’t care about the safety of your children. You say she is a better grandmother than mother. I don’t doubt that. She sounds very similar to my mother. Also in complete denial about my brother’s violence to me and the dog biting my dd despite her having a scar on her face.

Yes she hasn’t been an ideal parent by any means, but she loves us, she’s just got major, major control issues.

I don’t think people shouting st me is violence, I think people beating me and physically harming me is violence. Brother is aggressive and has not been kind to me, but he is not violent.

I see no issues in seeing him once or twice a year in an environment away from our houses. For lunch or whatever.

Mum I am happy to see more of, she’s here twice a year and I’m happy to see her at those times, however I have to acknowledge how controlling she is and make sure we are quite clear on what our plans are. I don’t want every family holiday to involve her, I have things to do over the summer that she will have to acknowledge and accept.

It’s partly difficult because for some reason she offers weekends that she is here to my brothers and weekdays to us, so in February she’s saying she will be here for four days over a week, but during all of those days, the boys are at school. I’m not quite sure what she thinks we will be doing. I certainly won’t be spending 4 days alone with my mum and baby. She leaves on the Friday to see my brother and his 3 year old.

I

People shouting at me and insulting/ belittling me I consider abusive.

I don’t tend to give them the time of day.

I spent years allowing people to treat me like crap till i decided enough.

People disregarding your feelings and screaming at you may not be violence in thr conventional sense but it is abusive. And your children should not see you being treated with such disregard and contempt.

I wouldn't go at all.

Time for the Mumsnet Complete Sentence:

"No, that doesn't work for me."

End of argument. Don't even try to explain or justify. They will not hear you.

Your feelings are perfectly valid.

"No, that doesn't work for me."

So basically you're asking. If you're being unreasonable in not wanting your sons around a dangerous out of control dog.
What do you think op.
Even if he wasnt scared dangerous have been known to maim or even kill children
There is no way my child would be near that bloody dog.

I agree, it is abusive. It isn’t violence though