Not to leave my kids under these circumstances...

[CantankerousCamel]

2 years ago we visited my brother in the spring, he lives a 4 hour drive away from me and I was around 7 months pregnant

Things were a bit odd while we were there, I’ll try and give a run down

1. He had a long, drawn out and pointless ‘debate’ with me about my NC status with our father, I explained that Father had raised his fist to me and shouted at me for the last time and Brothers defence of this was ‘well he never actually hit us so that’s okay’ I explained that when men shout at me I think they’re going to hit me and he said ‘you can’t say that, you can say you think they might hit you but you’re bringing it upon yourself because you are expecting it’

There was another conversation about sexual harassment at work where he basically said if the woman has given a firm no to being harassed then she should be disciplined for involving management as its embarrassing for the Male.

Anyway.

He has two dogs, one is a large pointer who doesn’t like children, so much that the dog growled at the children when they walked into rooms and snapped at both the boys (then 4 and 6)

When she snapped at Ds2 (4) we were all sitting on a couch, DB was nearest the door and the dog, DH, DS1 and I were further away on a different couch.

Ds2 looked really shocked when the dog snapped at him and looked at me. DB said (remember that Ds2 is 4 years old) that if he (Ds2) didn’t like the dog, he could just leave and pointed to the front door. So Ds2 is in a strange house, has just had a dog snap st him while he walks past it and now has his uncle shouting and screaming at him.

At this point I stood up, pulled Ds2 towards Me and held him, he was literally shaking.

DB told me I was ‘pandering to him’ and ‘this is just what he wants, attention’ And when I told him to stop he started shouting ‘what do you want me to do Ds2? Have the dog put down? Is that what you want? You want the dog dead? So I basically told him to leave us alone repeatedly until he left the room.

He came back in and again started shouting at us but again (whilst cradling ds2) I just told him repeatedly to leave us alone.

He did apologise an hour later, but as you can imagine, Ds2 has compartmentalised all the fear and shame he felt, into a fear of that particular dog.

Now my brother is going away for 2 weeks in the summer and my mum who lives abroad has arranged to spend 2 weeks at his house with me and the kids.

I did tell her that you wasn’t sure Ds2 would be okay with that but I would ask.

He is still absolutely not okay with it and so I said to mum that I would drive our caravan up there, stay for a long weekend, then drive back with the boys (I have to work) and come up for another long weekend. Apparently this isn’t good enough and she refuses to be there if we aren’t there for the entire two weeks then she will be on her own and that’s not good enough.

Then she said she would have the boys herself and I could come and work and the boys would have to get used to the dog.

AIBU to not send them? They would be really scared and it just doesn’t feel right to me.

I feel I’ve done my best in saying I’ll take the caravan and we will stay for half the time, especially considering all the driving but nothing seems good enough and she (and my brother) are now angry with me

Definitely don’t go and don’t let your kids go either. Your gut is telling you the right thing.

@Fishface77

“Why would you even consider going??”

Grrr why is there always at least one poster that has to turn things around and blame the OP. Put a sock in it.

Why are you apologising to your brother, or acting as go between in reporting that she won’t go there?

Just stick to your guns and say if she is there, you will visit the two long weekends, and that’s that. Up to her whether she House sits under those circumstances, or not.

Tell her you are happy for her to come and stay with you.

Your position is you won’t be leaving the kids there. Everything else is beteeen her and your brother.

We did leave when the dog bit Ds2. Well we packed, ate some food (that brother was making) and left on reasonable terms.

The kids were never near the dog again and we haven’t gone back to visit since or had any contact bar a graduation (here) in February.

Mum can’t stay here because she is incredibly judgmental about our way of life, she believes houses should be immaculate and last time she visited, she complained that the house wasn’t as clean as hers (she lives in an apartment on the river in a very posh Australian city.

She then told us off for not leaving the 6 month old DD to cry and was utterly awful to my husband and I. I asked her to leave the next day and the very thought of her being in our home again fills me with dread. We both work, I work part time around the kids doing a well paid physical job, DH works 40 hours a week and covers the childcare when I’m working. I had just got a 2:1 degree (got my results 4 days before giving birth to my youngest) and her words were so scalding.

Anyway so we need to find other ways for her to see us when she visits but she can’t stay here. She can’t even pop over

No, you really don't need to do anything of the sort. Have you considered how more pleasant your life might be without her in it?

And well done on your degree. Fantastic achievement.

Thank you! It was my graduation party that she came to stay after and said all those horrible things. Anyway I have bipolar and I’d been in a postnatal injuced depression for 4 months previous. The party was fantastic and I came back, tidied, slept and went to work. She came while I was at work and basically ripped my whole life to shreds. I ended up in complete, life destroying depression for another couple of weeks and it took three more months to hit stable.

But she loves these children and she’s very generous. It’s just hard because she really can’t be here

It's not your responsibility though, any of it. She can stay in a hotel, he can send the dog to kennels. You've got to stop trying to solve other people's problems. You have obviously played that role for so long but you have told them the situation and they have time to resolve it.

So she has treated, and continues to treat, her own child very very poorly but she's okay to her grandchildren? Why is that? Are you happy for them to observe how she treats you?

Fucks sake OP, woman up a bit
You don’t need to do anything
If you really don’t want her in your home and I can see why canyiu meet halfway for a meal or similar
Stop facilitate being jerked around by your shitty family, by being so awful to you you are showing your dc it’s ok to be that way

You really don't owe your mother anything. Sounds like she would send you spiraling off into depression again. Avoid. However inadvertent or not as the case may be.

I’m so sorry OP.

I went through all of this kind of crap before going nc with my parents and brother. Feeling attacked and criticising in my own home.

Trying to find compromises that maintained my boundaries and only served to incense them further.

It’s not worth it.

I thought my dc would miss them but it’s been a non issue.

You're deep in the FOG :(
Wanting to give her something to make her happy when she has no qualms about ruining your graduation and sending you spiralling into depression...

Actually Jazz, why would anyone consider going and putting themselves and their kids through this? It’s a very valid question.
Do people do it because they think they are family and it’s what is expected?

Why does DM think she can make arrangements for you and your DC?

Why do you expect more from DB?

I think lowering your expectations and putting yourself and your family first is the best thing to do.

Degree results fantastic.

'Anyway so we need to find other ways for her to see us when she visits...'

Why? Seriously, why bother?

Was your mum keeping you sage while growing up with a dad you are now no contact with?

safe

No no no no.
Your dc don’t go to your brothers house. It’s your brothers fault you have to have this rule and his housesitting arrangements are not your problem.
Your mum making arrangements for you that don’t work is also not your problem. It is your mums fault she can’t stay.
If you really have to be nice message your mum, don’t say anything ridiculous like sorry dbs house didn’t work out, just say I know the dc would love to see you, not quite sure how we can arrange this, let me know if you have any ideas.

'She came while I was at work and basically ripped my whole life to shreds. I ended up in complete, life destroying depression for another couple of weeks and it took three more months to hit stable'

She sounds unhinged. Why do you want her around your kids?

"But she loves these children and she’s very generous. It’s just hard because she really can’t be here" she could love them from afar, or take a hotel room nearby and take you all out to lunch?

Anyway, you really owe her nothing. Please remember that.

It’s complicated with mum, I’ve reduced contact, she’s not to come in the house anymore and she’s aware of how inappropriate it is to ridicule me.

My family have always been odd, mum worked long hours from when I was 2 and stopped paying for baby sitters when I was 8, just left me with my two abusive brothers for hours every day and then my dad would come home at five and not be much better.

It’s been awful and it’s take a lot of getting over. Mum lives on the other side of the world, so seeing her a couple of times a year is totally doable. It’s just a problem because of the lack of space here and that I prioritise very different things to her (like safety and love)

She does have lucid moments where she gets that but then she will think nothing of disregarding the boys feelings and getting upset when I prioritise them.

I was always called stupid and emotional and dramatic as a child, graduating was incredible, I’m the only person in my family with a degree. Let alone a 2:1 whilst raising three children!

But I don’t want to lose all touch with my mum. I just don’t want to spend time in a house that has been a source of deep discomfort for the boys.

No, no , no , no , no

It sounds like it wouldn't be good for you or your kids mental health, I'd just go somewhere nice you and your boys in your caravan for the long weekend and thank your lucky stars your not stuck with any of them (them being your DM , DB or those horrible dogs)

My god OP you deserve a medal putting up with all of that

Fuck me...your mother and brother sound appalling.
Read back what you have written - imagine you had done this to one of your children...
My recommendation is go NC with the lot.

Also massive congrats on your degree

No . Don’t allow those people anywhere near your children. If that’s normal behaviour for them & you’re there, there’s no telling what they’ll be like if they think you’ll not find out . The dog has already threatened your son, he’s only 4. Let your mother deal with it. Having a family that sound awfully similar. Do not get sucked in to a guilt trip.

Definitely wouldn’t go at all. You are being very responsible and sensible.

Don’t worry- seriously.

Just say no. Firmly.

It’s just a problem because of the lack of space here and that I prioritise very different things to her (like safety and love)
This is where you really need to concentrate. By all means realise that she doesn't prioritise things like safety and love, but also realise that in this case she is putting the assumed feelings of a dog above the very real and understandable fears and safety concerns of your DC. This isn't the actions of a loving GM. You need to prioritise your DCs safety - she is not going to.

Oh love

I get this. I get this sickening feeling to smooth everything over and the thoughts of how you can do it.

I'm coming up to a year NC now and it's been the best thing I've done. But it took years to get there. I should have done it sooner.

If you need some suggestions that your mum may go for:
You take the caravan for a long weekend somewhere near the seaside. Your mum can stay in a hotel for the weekend and you can have a less stressful weekend.

You suggest a day out somewhere in the middle between you and your brothers.

You suggest she stays in a hotel local to you for a weekend.

With regards to the two weeks, she's going to turn the screws, and it will be awful I expect. She'll get angry when manipulation doesn't work.
Simply message now and say you've discussed it with DH and neither of you are prepared to put DS's anywhere near the dog so you won't be visiting at all during the two weeks.
Follow up with an option above and leave it with her.
If she rants and raves just re-iterate that what works for you.
When she has a tantrum and refuses to see you, just remember that's her choice. That's the hardest part.

Your family is toxic and you have been abused by them all your life. I’m guessing you have had some therapy over the years, but have you ever done any assertiveness training to stand up to them? You need to be able to put your needs and the well-being of your family above the demands of these horrid people.

It’s ok to say to your mother, no I don’t want my DCs anywhere near the dogs so I won’t be seeing you. What’s the worst that can happen? A few ranting emails or phone calls which you can ignore by deleting emails without opening them and blocking phone numbers.

Is your life enhanced by having contact with your family?