Why do the TRAs hate mn?

[Sleepyslops]

Who are these people and why are they hating on us? Can't they cancel the cheque already?

You'll have a very long wait u suspect. As you imply it's almost exclusively Transwomen whose 'interests' are being promoted here. I think few of the TRAS or their supporters really care about Transmen because it's all about the men and putting women down.

Fishcanfly my nephew is a student at an Ivy League uni in the States. He is in male only accommodation and a member of a number of societies.

@NothingOnTellyAgain

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Some people think MN is transphobic because they assume that transwomen are all vulnerable gender dysphoric gay men who've had all the surgery. That's understandable. The transwomen of the past were mostly like that.

But this is no longer true. There are currently only a tad over 5,000 trans people who have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate or GRC. A very small, vulnerable group.

However under Stonewall's greatly widened trans umbrella there's now an estimated half a million people who class themselves as transgender.

These days very few transwomen are dysphoric. They don't feel distress about their sex. And for that reason very few make any changes to their bodies. About 90-95% of transwomen are fully male bodied. Oh, and most of them are sexually attracted to women.

I am not a lesbian, but it was lesbian rights that led me to this debate back in 2012. Because this huge uptick in men who identify as women and who are sexually attracted to women has led to a situation in which young lesbians in particular feel under siege. The older ones are less affected because they've mostly paired up. It's the ones who still need and use lesbian groups and social spaces who get the hassle.

Men who identify as lesbians put relentless pressure on these young women. In university LGBT socs an accusation of transphobia can be social death, which means a lesbian rejecting advances from someone with a penis is a very brave and risky thing to do.

How regressive is that? Are we prepared to accept that the idea that lesbians don't do dick is transphobic?

Bottom line: sex matters.

Excellent point, PrawnofthePatriarchy. It's just ridiculous to compare people who have genuine gender dysphoria such as my friend who has had to undergo and is still undergoing many, many hours of counselling and who has taken steps to undergo a change with my friend's 'transwoman' colleague who is a blatant fetishist who dresses like an adult store had a closing down sale and who asked her to bring in a piece of her underwear in for them, saying that it's fine if it's used.

It makes a mockery of people who are truly struggling with their identity.

When TRAs started telling women they were TERFs for having an opinion, it showed that they know exactly who IS a woman, and it undermined their whole argument of TWAW.

When they decided to call people with genuine disphoria as Truscum, it showed that their agenda had nothing to do with people like Scacross' nephew.

my nephew is a student at an Ivy League uni in the States. He is in male only accommodation and a member of a number of societies.

So what?

Terfsup That was in reply to fishcanfly's comment about Eton. There was no need for the rudeness. But I really shouldn't expect anything else from someone with your username.

So what?

For whatever reason it’s seen as acceptable to spread hate and utter slurs about trans people

Please feel free to report those alleged slurs. MN takes a very firm line on such things.

The Daily Mail has printed an article on the horrors of the gulag.....www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6161613/Monstrous-truth-Stalins-Gulag-prison-camps-LGBT-students-claim-like-holiday-camps.html

Please feel free to report those alleged slurs. MN takes a very firm line on such things

MNHQ also take a hardline on breakfasts, particularly when they involve avocados.

Skaross what I said was I don't feel the need for [a debate]

Even though you and I just had a mini convo about our differing points of view? It seemed perfectly civil and nice to me and I'd be interested to learn more about how you reached your POV and maybe you could learn how I reached mine?

If we don't discuss and debate then how do we resolve?

"No Bertrand what I said was I don't feel the need for one."

So how do you propose vulnerable women be protected?

Although they may be quite quick to label him as a sexual predator now he has a penis.

Obviously I don't know what SRS your nephew has had. But I can categorically say you that your nephew does not have a penis. Because that would be literally impossible. A female cannot ever have a penis. I wouldn't go up to your nephew himself and say this because it sounds like they have severe mental health issues and affirmation is the path that your nephews family have chosen to go down. But the actual objective truth is that your nephew does not have a penis.

Is 'natal woman' the new 'cis'? Fuck that. I'm a woman.

I will absolutely debate this face to face with anyone. But I refuse to debate with people in an Internet forum who from the safety of anonymity will spew hate and call me stupid or a handmaiden, which is what has happened on every thread I have posted on here. People like Elephantinacravat who has said that they wouldn't say it to my nephews face because of his mental health issues. He is not alone, there are other people on here who have the same issues reading everything you say.

When women meet 'face to face' they get:
Bomb threats
Harassment
Physically intimidated and blocked by people in balaclavas.

So how exactly would this face to face discussion ever happen?

A female cannot ever have a penis.

That is true. A woman may have surgically altered genitals, as can a woman, but neither of them have changed sex. They simply have surgically altered genitalia.

People like Elephantinacravat who has said that they wouldn't say it to my nephews face because of his mental health issues. He is not alone, there are other people on here who have the same issues reading everything you say.

So that's it then? We all have to say on here 'yes you can actually change sex, yes some women have penises and some men have vaginas, yes someone who was born female can have a penis' and ignore basic reality? We all have to lie? Even though the logical end to going down that road is that women will be royally fucked over?

I would assume that if your nephews mental health issues are so severe that they would be triggered into suicidal thoughts by someone saying to them 'you don't have a penis' (which is why I said I wouldn't say it to their face) then they need a care plan which would include carefully monitored Internet access. Because when it comes to what is said about trans people online, the words 'its literally impossible for someone who was born female to ever have a penis' is extremely low down on the list of things someone might find upsetting.

I am genuinely sorry that your nephew has suffered the way that they have. I think that genuine gender dysphoria must be very difficult to deal with. But at the same time I vehemently believe that no one should ever be forced to deny objective reality and especially when the results of denying that reality would be harmful to women. It's vitally important that people are still allowed to speak the truth, and yes, that includes on an online forum.

My 'nephew' is waiting for an appointment at the gender clinic. They (preferred pronoun) knows that I don't believe they are a young man. They do, however, know that I look great them very much. They also know my concerns around transitioning.

I would also like to quote this from upthread

You seem to be under the impression that this is a playground slanging match.

It's not. It's a deadly serious, and democratically allowable attempt by women to get their voices heard about a proposed change in the law.

Women's rights are under direct threat. And they are trying to get the word out in order for people to have their say.

This is so true. There does seem to be this idea that women are doing all this simply for the craic, because they fancy a bit of drama, because they love having a playground slanging match. That it's all a bit of a joke. It's really, really not.

there are other people on here who have the same issues reading everything you say.

This is this week's new line isn't it? 'Distressed teenagers read every word you say here, so you should shut up because of the children'.

No. Distressed teenagers with anorexia self harm by reading things that distress them and push their buttons, but no one is trying to make the British Bake Off get off air. You cannot child proof the whole world, you need to world proof the child. Post a thread on 'how do I help my distressed teenager avoid/resist reading political threads that upset them' and you'll get huge amounts of ideas and support. But what you actually mean is 'guilt, shame, shut up shut up shut up'. And the answer is no, don't be so silly. Because this is about all women and all children, particularly including the distressed ones.

I agree, you can't and shouldn't childproof the work, but then again I didn't mention children or teenagers.

I don’t understand exactly what it is you want SKaross?