Why do the TRAs hate mn?

[Sleepyslops]

Who are these people and why are they hating on us? Can't they cancel the cheque already?

hideously transphobic. For whatever reason it’s seen as acceptable to spread hate and utter slurs about trans people

Y'know, there's a currently active thread - one of many similar threads - that has a publicly-out TW posting on it and supporting the same "hideously transphobic" views that many of us share. Its based on an article they wrote which again supports the same view as GC women here, that some gatekeeping and segregation is right and required.

Why don't you pop along there and tell the TW how transphobic they are, with all their slurs and hatred. No? Why not?

@havingabadhairday I don’t think that’s right. What they object to is the constant refrain that trans people are a danger to women. You wouldn’t find sensible people equate a rogue element of any marginalised section of society with how the whole of that group of people behaves (see eg gay people, religious minorities etc). But it always seems to happen on MN re trans people. It saddens me.

Personally I think that generally transgender people should have the right to self identify and be able to access facilities of their choosing. I fail to see how a transgender person going to the toilet or getting changed in the next cubicle to you is an issue. I do understand there are exceptions to this such as places for vulnerable women and girls such as prisons and refuges and then there should be an alternative provided. I don't see the argument as blaxk and white.

• how posters hate anyone who they id as men wearing female clothes as that immediately pings as 'predator'.

Nope MEN women and girls recognise MEN and know that a very large minority of men are predators. We dont' give a fuck what they're wearing.

• how anyone who still has a penis is a man and a threat and only surgery makes you anything other than a danger to women

NOPE women on MN are not insisting that any boy or man who thinks they are trans must immediately be castrated. Obviously there are lots of good reasons (and lots of not good reasons) why someone may not want this surgery. We can't tell which is which though, obviously. Also, men who have been chemically castrated (sex offenders) have been known to use objects rather their penis to assaut. Some women may think that castration means they can come into womens spaces. Increasing numbers are saying NO a man without a cock isn't a woman. In fact the behaviours of trans activists is hardening the views of women who used to be more accommodating about this.

Were a threat to them, and a constant reminder that they will never be a woman.

@Skarossinkplungerridesagain Personally I think that generally transgender people should have the right to self identify and be able to access facilities of their choosing. I fail to see how a transgender person going to the toilet or getting changed in the next cubicle to you is an issue. I do understand there are exceptions to this such as places for vulnerable women and girls such as prisons and refuges and then there should be an alternative provided. I don't see the argument as blaxk and white

And why exactly is that - why do you accept/understand there should be segregation in those instances?

"* how people shouldn't be allowed to have mutilate their bodies and have surgery (often on the same page as posts about how retaining a penis means you're a threat to women and shouldn't be allowed in female space)."

I don't want any men in my space.
Loads of old men have cocks that won't get with teh program any more - should they all be allowed in with the women and girls?

Where's teh logic? There's no fucking logic.
A man with something that means he can't fuck with his cock is not a woman.

Why are women perpetaully described as non men?
Why is the definign feature of a man that he can get a decent hard on?
This is highly offensive to both men and women.

Because many of the trans threads seem transphobic would be my guess.

When you have a hammer you treat everything like a nail.

Are people really so lacking in imagination that they cannot imagine why having a man, yes a man because that's what a transwoman is, in their most private spaces could cause alarm and distress or even be a threat? Even if they can't imagine why it could possibly be an issue we've only had approximately 500 threads on the subject where women state their very real concerns.

My db is a gay man who works in the beauty industry and is incredibly gender critical and vocal about it, as a gc feminist I find some of the statements he makes transphobic, for instance. But he is never criticised and never attacked in rl. On one occasion he made a statement about Munroe Bergdorf and a stylist who was female laughed, she was then attacked as ‘transphobic’ for laughing. DB pointed this out and the accuser genuinely couldn’t accept the facts - that dB had said it and kept shaking their head and saying ‘no no no that’s not what happened’. He’s also refused to photo shop images of transwomen to further feminise them and this is accepted as it is ‘his art’ but a female style assistant was removed from a set for refusing to provide intimate make up application to a trans women. It’s a very very odd world indeed.

"@havingabadhairday I don’t think that’s right. What they object to is the constant refrain that trans people are a danger to women. You wouldn’t find sensible people equate a rogue element of any marginalised section of society with how the whole of that group of people behaves (see eg gay people, religious minorities etc). But it always seems to happen on MN re trans people. It saddens me."

MEN it is MEN for fuck's sake.
They commit the vast majority of violent crime and sexual violence all over the world. They rape, murder, buy kids to fuck, you name it, it's MEN that are doing it.
Women and girls are reasonabel to be wary of men, to say that it is discriminatory of us to feel that way is standard MRA talk.

“I do understand there are exceptions to this such as places for vulnerable women and girls such as prisons and refuges and then there should be an alternative provided”

Can you explain why? Surely if TWAW then it should always apply?

I support trans people and their rights. Does that make me a TRA (and by extension, according to PPs in this thread I hate women?) Or is it that TRA has become synonymous with a particular subset of trans rights activists? Interested to know - not goading - whether you think anyone who supports trans rights is bad?

Sorry shotsfired I don't understand, why is exactly what? I've already said that vulnerable women should be protected.

I also think that there are a hell of a lot of keyboard warriors on here. I doubt that people would be as quick to say to my nephew that 'he will never be a man' to his face when he was recovering from his second overdose.

Collaborate that poster is totally right.

The theory is
Sex is not a material reality
Internal gender ID is a material reality

Therefore bodies are irrelevant to anything, and a person is a man / women / boy / girl / male / female depending on what tehy self declare as.
There can be no arugment about someone's self ID. To do so is to deny that transpeople exist / literal violence etc.

That's the way it is. That's what loads of orgs (GG, swim england, prison service, etc) have been convinced is legally true and morally correct and they have all implemented policies accordingly.

Also, there has generally been a certain level of tolerance in women's bathrooms for your average transwoman who just wants to get in and out and go about their business. But now we're expected to allow every man in who decides that he's a woman that day, no matter what his intentions may be. He says that he's woman so we're just supposed to rollover and accept it in spite of the very real threat he may entail or even 'just' how intimidating his presence may be.

That women's bathrooms and changing rooms could become a no go area for so many of us isn't just some urban legend spread by 'hysterical' women. It's happening.

Although they may be quite quick to label him as a sexual predator now he has a penis.

"Personally I think that generally transgender people should have the right to self identify and be able to access facilities of their choosing. I fail to see how a transgender person going to the toilet or getting changed in the next cubicle to you is an issue. I do understand there are exceptions to this such as places for vulnerable women and girls such as prisons and refuges and then there should be an alternative provided. I don't see the argument as blaxk and white."

Then you are transphobic.

In fact worst of both worlds.

You think any man who says "I'm female" should be able to access all areas where girls / women are taking their clothes off.

At the same time you say there should be some restrictions - this is NOT aligned with the trans orgs that are advising the govt etc and would be deemed highly transphobic. Who are YOU to deny someone else's gender ID???

Hospital wards
Secure psychitric wards

Should let in any man who says the magic words "I'm a woman" sez you.

Communal changing areas (common in schools that run swimming clubs)
Gym clubs (communal again and no knickers allowed so little girls getting their knickers off.

And you think that men will not exploit this.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

There is an explosion in sex offences in mixed changing facilities.
Yet you think that telling men they can go IN WITH young girls and teen girls getting their kit off will not be exploited?

Come off it.

What you MEAN is that they are reasonable collaterol damage in this.

The whole self ID is also very real threat to my trans man friend. He won't use the men's room because he is very small, obviously still female in spite of undergoing some changes and he doesn't feel at all safe in there because of the potential threat that men pose. So now where is he supposed to go if men are invading the women's toilets too?

Oh, OK Nothingontellyagain thanks for letting me know.

chaoscategorised that rather depends on what rights you are looking for, for trans people.

If it's rights that over-ride established safeguarding for children, or that give a reason for pervy men to access women and girls when they are vulnerabel / undressed etc, then you obv don't care much about women and girls.

If it's the right to live free from discrimination in employment, ability to marry, all that stuff, then you won't find any arguments (and those rights are already enshrined in law).

I see that pro-trans"rights" females are very short-sighted. Bathrooms are a non-issue, because you get to shut the doors anyway. But it doesn't end with bathrooms. Any communal showers/changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, shelters - everything. and you don't get to pick and choose who and where you accept it and what are your limits of comfort. You may think of a harmless college kid, but you don't get to say no to a middle-aged fetishist. You have forfeited any rights to any boundaries.

chaoscategorised I think this thread pretty much proves it.

My DS is trans. I love MN to bits and ordinarily it's the first place I'd come when I needed advice or support. It's one of the most challenging things I've ever had to face, but I don't feel that I can bring it here. MN is such a wonderful and supportive place for so many things. But not for this.