Friends without kids

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Best friend of 20 years doesn’t have kids. We have been trying to meet up for ages- I have offered 2 possible dates where I was going to travel to her & take a day off work.

But she’s pissed off that I can’t stay & that I have to get back to pick the kids up from school. I’d have 5 hours & am travelling to get to get to her. She’s now said she can’t do the dates I have offered & is being difficult.

Aibu to think it’s so fucking hard sometimes trying to explain to people without kids what it’s like to work full time plus raise 2 kids- sort out childcare, manage their clubs & weekend stuff etc.

I feel like taking a days annual leave & offering to travel is making an effort but she’s making it SO hard for me- like I should feel guilty.

Appreciate it must be hellish to want kids and not be able to have them but its a separate issue, whatever the reason is that you have not experienced the thing, you have still not experienced it so cannot viscerally and personally know what that is like.

I saw my friends face the day after her father died she was ravaged by grief she looked like a different person. I haven't lost anyone that close yet thank god and I can imagine what it is like but I don't really know because I haven't been through it personally.

Appreciate it must be hellish to want kids and not be able to have them but its a separate issue, whatever the reason is that you have not experienced the thing, you have still not experienced it so cannot viscerally and personally know what that is like.

Agreed I can’t know what it is like to have children as I have not had that experience much as I wanted it. By the same token you don’t know what it it like to be married to someone for over 25 years without children as you have not had that experience.

This a ridiculous thread - the friend is rubbish because she is entirely inflexible and obviously doesn't want to put herself out or have any concept of your commitments. It has absolutely nothing to do with her not having any kids herself. I have loads of friends without kids and when we want to see each other we make mutually convenient arrangements - they are no more or less flexible than my friends with kids. In fact if anything they are usually able to be more accommodating as they don't have any kids to work round themselves. I think YANBU to be annoyed with your friend, but you should change the thread title as her childlessness is irrelevant.

And by that same logic, if I go to the gym for an hour it is a way for me to unwind and destress which is very important to my mental wellbeing. Exercise is important for everyone for a whole raft of reasons.

Busy is still busy. Everyone can justify being busy because the things occupying our time are either essential or important to us, and it is entirely down to each individual to decide what is important to them.

This thread has actually really fucked me off. Not because of the OP, she was justifiably angry. But the underlying tone all the way through it of self righteousness and it's been really quite unpleasant towards those who are not parents.

Quite disappointing really, more so after the very personal and heartbreaking stories shared.

WelcomeToShootingStars it’s not self righteous to state a fact- of course busy is busy, it’s the rigid restrictiveness of having children that is being (bizarrely) debates. If you want to go out you could skip the gym one night, I can’t do anything with my baby if her father is working and I don’t have childcare.

But why is the assumption that childless people don't have restrictions on their time?

It's much easier to arrange for someone to look after a child than it is for someone to look after an adult. So those who are caring for relatives probably don't have much flexibility. Most employers aren't that flexible, certainly not for employees who don't have children and are expected to pick up all the flack, the endless stream of hospital appointments I've had haven't been that flexible. My disabled husband doesn't afford me loads of flexibility. My studies aren't all that flexible.

Why is it so difficult to understand? It isn't like all of us childless people are just doing a bit of light work and then spending the rest of our time skipping through meadows making daisy chains.

Life as a childless person in your earlier years is very different to being childless as you age.

Agree that as you age you are far more likely to have adults that you are caring for. And employers rarely give any flexibility for this.
Most young people have far more flexibility in general.
And parents with kids can see friends at weekends as well. They just usually choose not to.

I’m child-free by choice, and several of my friends and relatives are parents.

I do my best to understand that as parents they have many demands on their time, which is an inevitable consequence of them choosing to have children.

They do their best to understand that my life does not revolve around their children.

I don't think taking a child to playgroup so they can interact with other children and benefit from the socialisation could be classified as a recreational activity for all the parents involved

Just as a childless person (in this case me) volunteering with a sports team of teenage boys with mental health issues Is not my ideal recreational activity, but I still do it because it's for their benefit.

It's laughable and pathetic for people withOUT kids to assume they know MORE about raising them/being a parent, than people do who HAVE kids

My husband was a reception teacher. He often had parents ask him for advice about their children because he was more experienced with children than some of them.

I don't have a bloody clue about young children and freely admit it, but he did. So don't write off all non parents as hopeless please.

This thread is getting more and more depressing as it just shows what contempt in which we are held by parents. Guess it's why I have few friends these days.

I wish everyone in the world could be more understanding of each other on this issue. Parenting is tough and busy and makes it difficult to commit to plans. That much should be clear to anyone with common sense. On the other side, being the 'childless friend' can be depressing (if kids are something you really want and can't have for some reason), frustrating (because you inevitably end up feeling like your life comes second even if that's not remotely what your parent friends mean to imply), and lonely (because you miss your old friends who are now busy with their kids). Friendships between people in different stages of life only survive if both parties adapt and try to make what effort they can how they can. OP, it sounds like you're making a perfectly reasonable and caring gesture by doing all the traveling this time. She really shouldn't be complaining when you're making this much effort.

@WelcomeToShootingStars
I hope I haven't contributed to how you feel about this thread. Not to split hairs but I honestly do think there is a big distinction between an activity such as going to the gym on your own for whatever reason which is essentially self care and facilitating dependent's recreational activities. The former is important and vital to some but ultimately for the benefit of one's self whilst the latter is for someone else's benefit and takes time away from the facilitator to do the self care activities that they too might desperately need.

We all have our own battles and demands on our time but factoring children into a busy child free person's life will only make it even busier and make the juggling act even harder.

@Leighhalfpennysthigh
I wouldn't describe that as a recreational activity but it is completely voluntary. You don't have any overriding responsibility for these boys and how they develop and mature. I think in lots of ways that makes your volunteering more selfless and laudable but I don't think it's the same as a parent facilitating the recreational activities of their children.

Just to be clear I'm not saying that child free people are all less busy than parents or that their lives and activities are any less worthwhile or important. I am just keen that the impact of children isn't downplayed to the extent that the expectation becomes that parents have to behave the same as adults without children who will mostly (not always) have fewer responsibilities and commitments. This is definitely a problem in the workplace and I think more widely in society and in my view really hurts particularly women. We need to be honest and acknowledge that children do make MOST people busier and this will probably have an impact of other aspects of your life.

I think in lots of ways that makes your volunteering more selfless and laudable but I don't think it's the same as a parent facilitating the recreational activities of their children.

The compliment....and then the you don't have children so you don't understand and your life is worth less comment.

Hmm. This thread is like a car crash for some of us childless people.

I use the gym in hotels when I have to stay there. I'd really quite like to be in my own home tbh. But my work requires me to travel.

If I'm not in the gym, I can't use that time to spend with friends and family.

This post is utterly fucking depressing and only serves to confirm that I made the right choice when I decided to no longer be the one expected to work around everyone else's plans and commitments.

I think in lots of ways that makes your volunteering more selfless and laudable but I don't think it's the same as a parent facilitating the recreational activities of their children

Did you say that out loud!!?? You might think you’re a great parent, but lots of kids don’t have great parents. Lots of old people don’t have people to care for them, lots of adults don’t have support. Lots of homeless people have been shoved out of society.

I don’t have children, but I work for a charity helping young homeless people. I know I can change their lives. Even in the tiniest of ways, even just sitting on a bench chatting about their dreams that they think they cannot achieve. I hope I can help them believe they can believe in those dreams.

I don’t think I’m better than you or more understanding of the intricacies of life.

Just because I don’t have a child doesn’t mean my contribution to society is less important. All you need to do is NOT fuck it up. You’re not actively undoing the damage of those who HAVE Fucked it up ( with your own children I hasten to add)

Just because I don’t have a child doesn’t mean my contribution to society is less important. All you need to do is NOT fuck it up. You’re not actively undoing the damage of those who HAVE Fucked it up ( with your own children I hasten to add

This. At the risk of derailing an already derailed thread people who work with vulnerable children (a mixture of parents and non parents) see the damage that a potent mixture of shit parenting, peer pressure and society's expectations are doing to a whole generation of children. These are children who are struggling to cope and who are seriously considering that the only way out for them is to kill themselves. Many have already attempted that at 15/16 years old. These children do not ask or give a shiny shit whether the person who sits next to them has children themselves. All they care about, all they need to care about, is that that person cares about them. You do not need to have pushed a baby out of your vagina to do that. Seriously, you don't.

Just as, 20 years ago, the very young children in my husband's reception class didn't care that Mr Leigh didn't have children. They, and the majority of their parents, recognised his knowledge, understanding and skill with young children and loved him for it.

I honestly think social media and media in general has a lot to blame here. I don't remember my parents or my parents' friends being such martyrs around parenting. They just got on with it, still saw friends, still had their own hobbies, life was certainly not tailored around the kids requirements. The rest of the world was not expected to acknowledge how difficult we made their lives. But then they were not bombarded with the continuous message that being a parent is the most difficult and important job in the world.

But then in reality, I don't see a lot of this in my own life either. When making plans everyone makes compromises and adjustments to take into account the needs of the other. I wouldn't expect my friend with kids to make drinks at 6pm on a Saturday afternoon. My SAHM friend wouldn't expect me to be able to come for coffee at 11am on a Monday morning. Its not rocket science.

I think it is good to remember that everyone else has the same internal world going on that you do and everyone's time is important to them as yours is to you - for whatever reason that may be.

It’s odd that child free people think that parents aren’t qualified to comment on their busyness or otherwise....all parents used to be childfree so are in a position to compare the two states. However painful or unfair it may be, the reverse is not true. It’s not true I’m every case but as a very busy childfree person with a demanding job and a caring role for an elderly relative I could not have foreseen for one moment the entirely new plain of busyness that having children is on...

@Leighhalfpennysthigh
I honestly don't understand how you have read:
I think in lots of ways that makes your volunteering more selfless and laudable but I don't think it's the same as a parent facilitating the recreational activities of their children

And then this:
Just to be clear I'm not saying that child free people are all less busy than parents or that their lives and activities are any less worthwhile or important

Both extracts from the same post and decided that I have somehow indicated your life is worth less. I don't think that at all and honestly feel now that you are reading things into what I've written that just aren't there. Thinking volunteering with damaged children and being a parent of children are different things doesn't mean that I'm making a value judgement on the former and suggesting it is inferior in any way. If anything I have clearly suggested the opposite, I just wanted to clarify the different nature of the commitments.

@lowtide
Again, where in my post have I suggested that volunteering wasn't important or doesn't make an impact on vulnerable people? I absolutely think it does and genuinely respect anyone that gives up their time to help others. My point was as a parent I believe you have a duty to your children not to fuck up and to be the best parent you can be, not perfect but not of the kind that are contributing to the kinds of issues facing the young people you work with. Even just satisfactory parenting requires a lot of work and commitment which comes from simply being a parent and there is no "opt out" facility. It's like being someone that volunteers at the local old people's home and someone that has agreed to take responsibility and care for their elderly relative. I see both as important but different.

I will withdraw from this thread now as I honestly think I'm causing a lot of unintended hurt and upset to people. I hope the latest clarifications help those I've upset to understand where I was coming from and apologise to anyone who I've offended.

beclev24 But why is it relevant? Its not a competition. My time is as important to me as your time is as important to you.

I think you are generalising here, OP. Also, have you thought that she might feel neglected by you as you keep telling her how hard it is for you to find time for her? You come across as if you're doing her a favour by managing to squeeze her in.

“Childfree parents have busy lives too”.

Does this mean pets?

Honestly horses dogs a highly pressurised time consuming profession with lots of international travel had nothing on having 2 children that have to be cared for 24 hours a day.

I think your friend just doesn’t understand how much you are giving ber traveling to her on your day off and if lunch is not enough then she has issues because surely seeing you for a few hours is better than not at all!?

Well said @DallasPanther

• Social media gives people a platform to express their feelings.
• A lot of people like to talk about themselves and what's going in on their lives.
• The result is lots of mothers verbalising how hard they find their lives and how being a mother is the most important job ever in the world.

I recognise this is not true for everyone but does apply to some and I think many of us have seen it.

I don't fully understand the need for this, maybe they are looking for a virtual 'pat on the back' recognition to make them feel more confident about the choices they made and how they are doing.
Ok you find it hard, but why bleat on about it? Just get on with it like people used to.

It's not at all wrong, people can use social media as they wish, but it is true to say people were not seeking this sort of attention and acknowledgment for being a mother in previous generations.
They did not need to feel 'special', nor felt the need to make childless/childfree women fully aware that they were 'less special' in their eyes. They just got on with it.

It's sad. As a poster said earlier in the thread, men don't seek out this 'special recognition' for being a father, and I cannot imagine they belittle other men without children.

It's very divisive, and it's definitely a new thing that affects mothers more than fathers.