Friends without kids

[Musicforthemasses18]

Best friend of 20 years doesn’t have kids. We have been trying to meet up for ages- I have offered 2 possible dates where I was going to travel to her & take a day off work.

But she’s pissed off that I can’t stay & that I have to get back to pick the kids up from school. I’d have 5 hours & am travelling to get to get to her. She’s now said she can’t do the dates I have offered & is being difficult.

Aibu to think it’s so fucking hard sometimes trying to explain to people without kids what it’s like to work full time plus raise 2 kids- sort out childcare, manage their clubs & weekend stuff etc.

I feel like taking a days annual leave & offering to travel is making an effort but she’s making it SO hard for me- like I should feel guilty.

@butterflysugarbaby
That’s a very basic understanding of patriarchy there.
It’s imcredibly complex, and women are often pitted against each other. The main outcome being, not one person questions the mans role in this.

The fear on this thread is palpable, women have to put their children first sacrificing all else and if they don’t, then they’re not proper mums.
I barely ever hear men struggling with this same scenario. I’m sure they’re are exemptions and lots of people will come on here and tell me. But a lot of men don’t seem to struggle with keeping friendships going with their child free male friends.

Trying to ignore the 'debate'...

YANBU OP - quite simply you have suggested suitable dates/ arrangements that would fit in with your life but your friend, for whatever reason, is unable to agree with the suggestions. I feel you have shown a reasonable degree of flexibility so leave it to her now.

If, as a PP suggested, she is feeling upset at only having a few hours with you - now she has the choice of a few hours or none.

@butterflysugarbaby your right, I can try and empathise with parents, and my only experience of having kids full time is limited to taking nieces and nephews on holidays... I wouldn't ever presume to say I completely understand how it feels to be a parent. Same a single parent may say that parents who are together still will not understand the pressure they are under.

The issue being that the OP immediately made this an issue about the friend basically not being grateful or understanding or being agreeable to her plans because the friend doesn't have children. That is very insulting to assume that the issue is the friend doesn't have children. The actual issue is that for whatever reason, the friend clearly no longer values the friendship as much as OP, because if they did they'd meet up for the 5 hour slot the op was available for.

No one understands another persons shoes without walking in them. I get that having kids changes priorities etc. But what the childless brigade are trying to explain is that they have shit going on too.

@lowtide

I think you've made a very good point.

I actually think this is because men are simply not so invested in their friendships with other men as women are with their friendships with other women. For that reason, there isn't the same level of angst when trying to arrange a time to see each other.

Obviously we shouldn't generalise, but I do think that generally it's women who worry about where they stand with their female friends.

In answer to the OP Your friend does sound like she could be a bit more understanding. In answer to the idea that parents with children know what it is like to be childless. Just no. You know what it was like to be childless at a time not what it is like to be now. It is very different to be child less in middle age than in your 20s! Everything shifts as you get older, which I think has been demonstrated by this thread. Being childless when this makes you a significant minority is v different to when you were that group of childless mothers that go down the pub.
Yes,it can be more difficult to arrange to meet etc and those without children often will happily make compromises to do this. However, the aggressive entitlement in places on this thread that implies that childless people should either just be ditched as friends or abused if they don’t appreciate how must harder life is for a parent is upsetting to read. At the end of the day, if you would rearrange your day to make allowances for a friend that is a fellow parent, why would you not do it for a childless friend (even if you felt that it would be harder for you)? After all, all friendships need a bit of love and care whether you are going through the same things or not.

She probably doesn’t have kids because she’s a child herself

This is very offensive. I don't have children, not because I didn't want to but because it just didn't happen for me. Saying stuff like this hurts people. To be honest it makes you sound very smug indeed. As soon as I read it I just knew the username would start "Mummyof....'

I think it is the title of the post that has caused this bunfight.

It frames the discussion immediately - it unwittingly pitches parents against non-parents.

The friend here is clearly just selfish. Which is a personality trait that is not caused by having or not having children.

I don't have children and would have lots of friends with children. I would automatically factor that into any arrangements we make. I would work around it.

The comments about non-parents not being able to understand do come across as patronising - they just do. You might not intend this. Luckily my friends never come out with stuff like this, at least not to my face.

butterflysugarbaby bravo- fully agree with your post

@BabyCobra - good summing up - on all counts imo.

butterflysugarbaby just to say firstly that I am not child free by choice - I am devastated that I won't have children and find it incredibly difficult that every single person I know does. I am very understanding to all those with children and while I'm sorry you've received rude/inappropriate comments before I have also had very insensitive comments from people with children with no empathy for the fact that I can't have any.

I was not suggesting that women with children don't have a challenging time at all, I was simply relating my experience that as the only one without children I am constantly told I obviously have endless free time and therefore I ALWAYS have to be the one making the effort and I don't believe that's fair.

People who think they know all about being a parent and think they have the right to comment on childrearing, when they have never had kids, really piss me off

Why would I comment on childrearing? The whole subject bores me to tears. It's a bit of a leap from saying that I have an 'idea' of one of the most commonplace and universal experiences in life from suggesting that I offer opinions about a subject I care nothing about.

All I'm saying is that parenthood isn't mysterious. I know that parents have responsibilites around the clock, all day every day. That's one of the reasons I chose not to do it. And one of the reasons why, as I've said, I think parents and the childfree are socially incompatible for the most part.

And you can 'wow just wow' as much as you like at my post, and say you are glad I am not YOUR friend. I am as entitled to my views as the 'wow just wow' brigade, and I don't give a monkey's tit if you wouldn't want to be my friend.

It would never even occur to me to want to be 'friends' with some anonyous poster on the internet, especially one as angry and aggressive as you.

Christ this is the most depressing thread I've read on here in ages. And that's saying something. Some posters need to take a long hard look at themselves.

The Op hasn’t said anywhere that her life is busier than the friend’s. I think you are being a bit U Op just because your friend is being a bit of an arse doesn’t mean other people without kids aren’t understanding. Most people would understand that you need to be back to pick up kids from school, she’s an arse

Agree with ShatnersWig.

It's a fair point that you can't truly understand something until you've experienced it not really. Be that parenting, bereavement, rock climbing, caring for someone with dementia. It's a human reality. That's why going through things bonds you to others experiencing it too.

People who have children, have experience of having them - AND not having them, so their opinions and views are much more valid than the child-free brigade.

What - their opinions and views on being parents, or their opinions and views on absolutely everything??

A woman doesn't have to have pushed a small human being out of her vagina in order to have a clue about life, you know.

But surely everyone's experience of not having children is different?! Some people have demanding jobs, caring responsibilities for parents and all sorts of demands on their times and some people might not. I don't think you can generalise like that. Before my sister had children she didn't have a very demanding job, lots of leave, flexible hours and she was in a relationship and they shared all housework etc. I am on my own, with a demanding job, long hours and no flexibility so it's not really the same thing.

@Gemi33
Of course everybody's lives are different, I don't think anyone could or would claim otherwise. I also don't think anyone can say that all parents are busier than all childfree people, however I think if you looked at the two groups and performed some class analysis then overall parents would be busier than childfree adults, especially if you factored out recreational or completely voluntary activities. A lot of the things you mention in your post that would keep childfree people busy such as busy jobs and caring responsibilities for elderly relatives exist for parents too and they have to juggle these commitments on top of raising kids.

Of course some parents have those responsibilities too. But some don't. I think that people just need to realise that everyone has different demands on their time. Children are of course one of those but there are lots of others and some people with children behave in a way that suggests that children trump everything else and that can be frustrating. Not all parents do that obviously and I would never say that. It's simply that some that I know have and basically believe that if you don't have children you don't have a life and therefore you should always be the one to compromise. I just don't think people should be so quick to assume they know what other peoples' lives are like. We are all different.

@Gemi33

I was not suggesting that women with children don't have a challenging time at all, I was simply relating my experience that as the only one without children I am constantly told I obviously have endless free time and therefore I ALWAYS have to be the one making the effort and I don't believe that's fair.

I'm really sorry that you've had people say this to you, it's very unkind, no two ways about it.

The OP isn't saying this, though; and she's the one who's making the effort by driving all the way to see her friend. She's trying to be accommodating.

I have managed to go awake for the night with a friend a couple of times; it is doable but it needs planning. I wouldn't do it on a weekday during term-time, though. We've also had friends/family members to stay with us.

There are ways that parents can spend time with friends, where there's a will there's a way. (I know that a lot of single parents don't have someone to leave their children with, but this isn't the case with the OP.)

Ok. If you're taking all of the recreational stuff out of the schedules of childless people then be sure to do it for those with children too. So bye bye playgroups, dance practice etc etc

Do you see how pathetic that sounds? People are busy. That doesn't mean they're martyrs to the stone. It means they're busy.

I realise that the OP wasn't saying that and is trying to be accommodating - I was just making more of a general comment in relation to the title of the thread and the reference to making arrangements with friends without children. I think in this particular case the friend isn't being fair - but not really anything to do with not having kids, just being unwilling to be flexible and compromise!

@WelcomeToShootingStars
I don't think taking a child to playgroup so they can interact with other children and benefit from the socialisation could be classified as a recreational activity for all the parents involved. Yes some use it as a chance to catch up with fellow parents and have a chat but lots find it an awkward, noisy experience that they put themselves through for the benefit of their children. I also wouldn't say many adults doing the drop off/pick up for dance lessons would class this time as recreational but dance can be important for some children to improve their physical skills and build up their confidence. Neither of these examples are comparable to an adult (parent or not) spending time on a recreational activity that they enjoy for the sole purpose that they enjoy it.

Facilitating recreational activities for your children is a part of (good) parenting. It often runs completely counter to that parent's desire to spend time on their own hobbies and interests. Would you suggest an adult taking their elderly mother to a coffee morning so that they could mix with other older people was a recreational activity? What about dropping the elderly relative off at a dance so that they could keep active and socialise? I wouldn't class those activities as recreational for the facilitating adult either.

I agree that the title of the thread was somewhat insensitive, and the OP should have known what the reaction to it would be. Because it has nothing to do with whether she has children or not, the friend is just selfish.

I have a child free friend who I meet up with every few months for a meal out, and she's very accommodating; we always meet up at weekends when my DH is at home.

The simple fact is that some people are selfish and entitled sadly.

butterflysugarbaby

People who have children, have experience of having them - AND not having them, so their opinions and views are much more valid than the child-free brigade.

@bringincrazyback

What - their opinions and views on being parents, or their opinions and views on absolutely everything?!'

Don't be so bloody pedantic. I OBVIOUSLY mean the opinions and views of whether life is easier with or without children , are more valid from people who have had them, than they are from people who have NOT, because they have seen both sides. It's pretty obvious that I don't mean their views on EVERYthing!

It's laughable and pathetic for people withOUT kids to assume they know MORE about raising them/being a parent, than people do who HAVE kids!

I know one woman (child free by choice,) who thinks she knows all about parenting, because she has a fucking DOG!

@Onlyfoolsnmothers

Totally agree with your post butterfly, bravo.

Thank you.