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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be heartened to see so many European flags...

295 replies

Sarahlou63 · 08/09/2018 22:46

at the Last Night of the Proms? Love the music and general English nuttiness of the concert but really pleased to see so many European flags and hats.

OP posts:
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7
WrongOnTInternet · 09/09/2018 11:01

LarLarLand, I wish there was a like button. I do hear you.

Moussemoose · 09/09/2018 11:03

Ref 2 is a very realistic option.

The calls to 'stop complaining' are calls to stop engaging with the democratic process. More people need to voice their opinions that is the life blood of democracy.

AlliKaneErikson · 09/09/2018 11:25

Off the point a bit, but the ladies of the choir and orchestra have always worn colourful dresses on the Last Night, Matilda (well, as long as I can remember).

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 09/09/2018 12:19

Nice try morethan but you're wrong. And as for my bright, sparky, independently minded DD believing something just because I do? You do her a disservice. Many young people have access to sources of information which do not come from their mothers. I believe that the youth of today sometimes even talk amongst themselves!. It is a widely held belief amongst some young people that the older generation have fucked up the future for them. And most of those people have never had the privilege of hearing my views!
Are you referring to Greece in your post? Its not very clear.
And I don't know what your playground sentence means. It's all rather incoherent, much like the info coming from the govt.
I was also disappointed but not surprised to note you were rather forceful in your derision towards me. That's what you get when you touch a nerve I guess.

In other news, 🌟 for LarLarLand Perhaps Morethan could read it for pointers on how to make a thoughtful, coherent and accurate point.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 09/09/2018 13:08

Not so sure there was as many EU flags being waved as the picture up thread indicates. Bit of Trumpian selective picture croping?

To be heartened to see so many European flags...
EthelThePiratesDaughter · 09/09/2018 13:42

Seen on Facebook:

"On the subject of EU flags at the Proms:

I am writing this post because, as some of you will know by now thanks to social media, I was involved with the EU flag team presence at the Last Night of the Proms. As a freelance musician I have participated in the Proms for the last few years and this year played in Prom 74, Handel’s Theodora with Arcangelo and Jonathan Cohen. In terms of EU flag presence 2018 was the most successful since the movement started in 2016, with 20,000 flags and quite a lot of berets given out across Hyde Park and the Royal Albert Hall for the Last Night of the Proms. We offered them for free, funded by crowdfunding from the public, and in general people were only too happy to take them. Most of the EU flag team wore t-shirts saying “Thank EU for the music” to help with highlighting the concerns of musicians regarding Brexit. I recognize that there are strongly held beliefs on both sides of the Brexit debate and this statement is not going to be an attempt to debate with those who voted to leave the EU. That is not what this post is for. We are where we are, and at this point many musicians have got legitimate, pragmatic concerns about how our work will function in the future.

These concerns do need unpicking, and it has come to my attention that a lot of people simply aren’t aware of the potential impact that Brexit will have on musicians. We have been accused of all sorts of political high jinks with the EU flag distribution, when really the idea at the Last Night of the Proms 2018 was to open an inclusive debate on the matter and raise public awareness. So I would like to elucidate here, and give you the opportunity to disseminate this message further should you wish.

In a poll by the Incorporated Society of Musicians, a third said that 50% or more of their income comes via work in the other EU member states. Remember that some of those polled will be in salaried jobs with UK orchestras. Personally I would say that at least half of my performing income comes from gigs in the EU.

So, following the vote to leave the EU, where does this leave us? The career of a freelance musician has always been a precarious one, but those of us who have chosen that path have put time and energy into building up a portfolio of work across the EU. Until June 2016 this was a perfectly valid career option. I trained with the European Union Baroque Orchestra (now sadly forced to move from Oxfordshire to Antwerp, with UK nationals now missing this valuable opportunity) and that shaped my route into the profession. My first professional employer when I graduated from the Royal Academy of Music in 2009 was the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, followed shortly after by a European tour with Sir John Eliot Gardiner’s English Baroque Soloists, with whom I continue to undertake EU touring work. I also work extensively with Paris-based orchestra Le Cercle de l’Harmonie.

As it stands, my colleagues and I have offers of EU work post-Brexit. We have accepted those offers. We hope that the UK achieves a deal with the EU, and we know that in that instance we will retain freedom of movement until the end of 2020, under a transition period. At the moment if I am offered work with an orchestra in Paris, all I have to do is send them an A1 form from HMRC (mine is technically valid until July 2020, but is it?) which demonstrates my status as a UK tax payer, and hop on a Eurostar with my instrument.

If freedom of movement is lost, as it is likely to be following a transition period, then suddenly things are more complicated. I have it on good authority from colleagues who remember the days of pre-EU touring that the whole thing was rather more cumbersome than it is now. Let’s be clear about this, musicians are not simply opposing Brexit because we are lazy and don’t like bureaucracy. The practical application is that with loss of freedom of movement we are suddenly potentially required to provide instrument carnets, work permits, visas, customs declarations… these things take time, energy and money! As it stands, if you tour to the USA with an instrument (as I did 11 months ago) you have to carry a document certifying the materials contained in your instrument. If the customs officials suspect that your instrument contains a banned material then it will be “ceased”. Their word not mine. Now, I accept that it is unlikely that this sort of regulation will be applied overnight on March 29th 2019. But you can understand that no-one wants to risk their expensive instrument being “ceased”. Without a common rulebook, at this point, anything is possible.

It has been 18 months since the UK government ‘triggered’ (why do we have to use this verb?) Article 50. Since then we have heard nothing about freedom of movement regarding services. Nothing. That is simply extraordinary.

I am involved in organizing a tour with the Oxford-based orchestra Instruments of Time and Truth. We go to Spain for a week and leave the UK on March 29th 2019, which is the day that the UK is set to leave the EU. With just over 6 months to go I have no idea if I am supposed to be organizing work permits, instrument carnets, customs declarations for anything going over by road…We have to get paperwork in place for 40-50 musicians. Do we only need paperwork for our return journey? Do we need to demonstrate on our return journey that we left the UK on March 29th, even though that technically wasn’t an issue at the time? Does every member of our choir and orchestra need to apply for a work permit? These take time. I’d like to start on it now if it needs to happen. We have accepted the dates so I accept that this paperwork may well need to materialize. I would just love to know what it is that I have to produce. This is a shocking dereliction of duty by our government.

Going forward, if we do need to generate this paperwork for tours in the EU then realistically the admin costs will need to be added on to our fee. Will a promoter in the EU want to book a UK group, or would they prefer a group from an EU member state operating without the burden of bureaucracy? Ultimately what happens? I imagine that no-one is told, outwardly, “this is because of Brexit”. But the emails stop coming. The phone calls stop coming. This will also be true for freelancers, and I am afraid that it will hit us hard.

If, as has been floated in the media this week, EU nationals are not eligible for special treatment after Brexit, what happens to our orchestras? Do EU nationals playing in the Last Night of the Proms earn the £80,000 a year required to keep their place here?

If Brexit means that EU nationals will be charged higher fees to study at our conservatoires, then how many can afford to come? The net widens outside of the EU. Does the level of talent diminish? Perhaps the professors that they wanted to study with couldn’t stay anyway.

There will be a lot of noise in the press over the coming days about the EU Flags at the Proms. I hope that the message that we are trying to convey will not get lost in that noise. In order to maintain our place on the world stage we need to preserve freedom of movement in the EU.

Please share this message.

Musicians or not, we will welcome your support. To keep the UK as a thriving centre for classical music it is absolutely essential that we retain freedom of movement post-Brexit. Music is borderless. If you enjoy what we do then please help us at a time when our livelihood is under threat.

To support us:

  1. The biggest step is to share this post. We’re delighted that you want to share this, so thank you from me and those with whom I stand.

  2. If you live in the UK and are really super serious about wanting to support classical music in the UK then write to your MP to ask what is being done to support freedom of movement for creative industries post-Brexit. The BBC Proms is an amazing platform for classical music across the world. We don’t want to lose our place on this stage."

Posted by a musician called Aliye Cornish.

Gersemi · 09/09/2018 13:43

Also off the point, I really enjoyed the saxophone soloist.

Moussemoose · 09/09/2018 14:11

Thanks for that Ethel interesting if depressing post.

Yet another thing no one though about but Brexit will fuck up.

All the Brexit supporters keep saying it will be ok while scientists, economists, musicians and many other keep pointing out what we will lose.

But that's ok because....

ForalltheSaints · 09/09/2018 14:14

EthelThePiratesDaughter thank you for the explanation, as I was surprised to see so many EU flags whilst watching last night. Yet another reason to have a second referendum, though I suspect most of those who voted Leave do not appreciate the value and skill that goes into classical music, or the export value of music in general.

1981fishgut · 09/09/2018 14:22

The elite and and elite event listing to largey elite music
Who would guess they would be waving the EU flag

LittleLionMansMummy · 09/09/2018 14:40

Yes 1981fishgut because Jacob Rees Mogg etc are just such ordinary people aren't they?

Deadbudgie · 09/09/2018 14:41

I must say I’m increasingly perplexed by the continued moaning of remainers. There were arguments both ways. If people can’t see this they really weren’t educated enough on all the issues.it is clear we are coming out of the EU and whether you agree or disagree it’s best to get behind the exit negotiations rather than sending messages of splits all the time, they are undermining the country. But these people with their EU flags and berets want Brexit to fail. How many of those last night will actually be affected by a bad Brexit? We need the country to actually get together, it’s a shame so many are willing the country to fail and all the associated mess that will bring just so they can say “I told you so”

LittleLionMansMummy · 09/09/2018 14:47

I must say I’m increasingly perplexed by the continued moaning of remainers.

Yes it must be very confusing to realise that democracy is a continuous and evolving process, rather than a static conclusion.

LakieLady · 09/09/2018 14:48

And even in swivel-eyed whackjob pro Leave rural areas like mine, still a sizeable number of us voted Remain.

Two rural areas of Sussex (Mid-Sussex and Lewes) voted Remain, along with Brighton & Hove. I was pleasantly surprised.

LARLARLAND · 09/09/2018 14:53

The musician’s post is very interesting and yes, very depressing but what I also find depressing is that classical musicians are usually privately educated and come from middle class families. Most children don’t have access to good music teaching in state schools or their parents don’t have the money to pay for lessons or the time to ferry them about to lessons. Working as a professional musician is badly paid and most kids don’t have the luxury of a second income or being able to stay living in their parents’s generously sized home while they indulge their passion. It just isn’t an option. What these talented musical kids do instead is form bands and make more accessible but incredibly creative forms of music, which is why when it comes to pop and rock music the UK is the envy of the world.

LeroyJenkins · 09/09/2018 14:55

@Catsize
Disclaimer - I didn't vote.

Then you don't get to complain either way then do you?

Quietrebel · 09/09/2018 15:15

1981fishgut
No need to be 'elite' to appreciate beauty and culture!!

LakieLady · 09/09/2018 15:18

The elite and and elite event listing to largey elite music

What absolute shite. My working-class family would have classical music on the radio when they were far too poor to afford a record player.

Class has nothing to do with it.

Defrack · 09/09/2018 15:29

Why doesn't she get a say in things just because she didn't vote?

So can no one complain about anything that happens if they didn't vote for it. So about 17 million people can't complain or talk about brexit then?

Quietrebel · 09/09/2018 15:32

Typical of some people on here: blather on about freedom and sovereignty but stifle debate at every opportunity.

Moussemoose · 09/09/2018 15:49

I don't listen to classical music but I see how it is valuable and beautiful to other people.

Classical music may well be elite - it's not my thing I don't know. If it is then this is a fault of U.K. governments and society and nothing to do with the EU. The EU has valued and supported classical music in a way the U.K. government won't.

I will not 'get behind' the destruction of scientific research, classical music, the pharmaceutical industry and much, much more because YOU voted Brexit.
I will fight it until there is no democratic route left to fight it, because that is how democracy works.

And oh the irony of statements like this "they really weren’t educated enough on all the issue" about remainers. Pop over to some Brexit threads and argue your points @Deadbudgie.

Quietrebel · 09/09/2018 15:51

So many are willing the country to fail
This statement in relation to remainers or anyone who questions the brexit process is deeply offensive.
Leavers do not have the monopoly over the concept of loyalty to this country. What bullshit. Remainers are remainers precisely because they think brexit is the surest way to set up this country to fail!

Cobblersandhogwash · 09/09/2018 16:32

Well you know, some sort of a plan would help.

40 years of bitching about the EU. Two years of negotiations. Still no plan.

What's bunch of clowns. Unprofessional, shit stirring planks.

It's your mess, Leavers. Enjoy.

To be heartened to see so many European flags...
Defrack · 09/09/2018 17:53

It's not just the leavers mess though is it?

They may have voted for it, but everyone is going to suffer because of it.

scaryteacher · 09/09/2018 18:28

Yet another reason to have a second referendum, though I suspect most of those who voted Leave do not appreciate the value and skill that goes into classical music, or the export value of music in general.

Not true at all; again, yet another slur on those who voted leave.

As to the piece in the FB post that Since then we have heard nothing about freedom of movement regarding services. Nothing. That is simply extraordinary. No, it's not extraordinary since there is no real single market in services, as this attests www.eppgroup.eu/news/Single-Market%3A-Europe%E2%80%99s-problem-with-services