To be heartened to see so many European flags...

[Sarahlou63]

at the Last Night of the Proms? Love the music and general English nuttiness of the concert but really pleased to see so many European flags and hats.

Did you even read my post?

There are only two options available. The negotiators aren't going to be able to come up with a magic solution any more than you can.

This is just one example of how it is entirely possible to predict, with a high degree of certainty, that Brexit will be a disaster, without the need for a crystal ball. And when people like me or those pesky "experts" spell out the consequences of leaving the EU without a deal, and the legal and factual impossibility of achieving a deal which meets the government's stated objectives and doesn't fuck the country, we're not merely speculating.

Just because you don't have a clue how Brexit will pan out, it doesn't mean everyone else is similarly ignorant.

You have no idea what deals may or may not be made

Is that seriously the best you can come up with, Veni? That with any luck someone may come up with a deal that will get us out of the shit? What do you suggest should happen if they can't?

Parliaments may not be bound by previous ones, but countries are bound by treaties.

In relation to an EU army.
I can see how it can come across as pedantry but the proposal for a defence force is not an army. In military and political terms an 'army' is quite specific. While a joining of armed forces - like NATO - is a defence force and not an army.

The UN does not have 'an army', NATO is not 'an army', EU military joining together for a particular purpose would not be 'a European army'.

If you think this proposal is an army then we are already a member of the US army via NATO.

@VeniVidiWeeWee what personal insult? That is the fault with Brexiters so quick to be offended. In my opinion claiming the EU is planning an army is rubbish. That is to criticise the idea not the person therefore it is not a personal insult. You can disagree and call my ideas rubbish I will not be offended at all.

Does that really need explaining?

It is not an EU army.

No comments on the economics of yesterday anyone?

I'd love to hear the Brexiters take on the counterfactual rubbish put forward.

But especially the: " all economists are rubbish, except the ones that agree with me " comments from the ERG.

The article I linked to called it an army. It meets the dictionary definition of an army.

Countries may leave treaties by various means.

As to personal insults, describing someone as having a rubbish opinion when one doesn't provide any refutation is insulting.

The article you linked to said:

" create what some have called the nucleus of a joint army."

SO it didn't say that this is going to be an army, or say who said it was.

If you are going to be dogmatic about "facts" it helps to be correct.

The headline says army and some of the proposers want it to be an army. If it looks like a duck.....

You have no idea what deals may or may not be made

This is hilarious. Nobody knows what deal may or may not be made. And yet 17m+ signed on the dotted line to leave the EU without actually knowing what the details are.

Risible. Everyone is laughing at the ERG.

"Step toward joint army"

Then is clarified as some people say it could be.

Some states want closer defence policies, but this is a matter of national decision.

the UK retains a VETO on any common defence policies / army p[lans set by the EU.

Doesn't say what you claim.

Here have some confirmation for your bias.

I am calling for a free cake day. I am planning a day when the government will give free cakes. I will write a news paper article about Free Cake Day.

It doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Describing an opinion as rubbish is not a personal insult especially when their opinion is (for want of a better word) rubbish.

Seriously, Ireland (a member of the EU) is a neutral country. It can't join an "Eu army". So who's making whom join this EU army? Nobody. It's somebody's idea which member states have no obligation to join in with.

Even to a thread about how only the educated should vote.

I was very surprised by that thread of bearbehind's and even more surprised by how few people objected to her desire for only the "well informed" to have a vote.
Maybe that's what a lot of people secretly think.

I certainly don't think "only the well informed should vote" but I also believe that people should accept the consequences of their vote. If stuff goes badly after 29 March 2019, no shit will be given.

Well, to be honest, I don't think there should have been a referendum at all on this very complex issue.

Who understood, for example, rules of origin or the impact of cross border insolvencies after Brexit?

Dapplegrey

I think that only well-informed people should vote on an issue as complex as leaving the EU. Which is why we shouldn't have had a referendum, but rather left representative democracy to do its job.

EthelThePiratesDaughter

I agree that the referendum should not have happened and for the same reasons.

But

I have seen nothing that would make me think that the "representative democracy" is any more informed about this than anyone else.

@BoneyBackJefferson you're right. They have no idea either.

We are in a right pickle.

Wait until the Americans get their claws into what is left of the UK. It won't be pretty.

All we need is faith. Not facts. Faith. Where is your great British backbone?

I have seen nothing that would make me think that the "representative democracy" is any more informed about this than anyone else.

Prior to the referendum most MP's supported EU membership. Parliamentary procedure has far more accountability than referendum-by-tabloid-soundbite.