To be heartened to see so many European flags...

[Sarahlou63]

at the Last Night of the Proms? Love the music and general English nuttiness of the concert but really pleased to see so many European flags and hats.

Slarti-can you give me some names, please? Preferably writers not behind a paywall?

"There have been plenty, people like you just don't listen & we just get fed up with the constant bleating of "rayyyyyyysist" and the insults."

I see far many more leavers complaining about being insulted than I see leavers being insulted.

In reality its that there are no good arguments for leave.

“Now I realise, the music I grew up with, that was practiced constantly in my house, my whole childhood - was almost entirely European (none of that Elgar shit).”

What a peculiar comment. Why denigrate composers like this just to formulate a weird Brexit argument, when they lived before the EU even existed? Elgar was also European!

He learnt German, travelled around Europe, appreciated and learnt from other European composers.
That said, I’d take that “shit” over bombastic, jingoistic, anti-semitic Wagner any day. Or is Wagner superior because he was European mainland? Nuts

I disagree, what I want does come in to it & is happening

Fine. What do you want, and what do you think is happening?

I don't mean "leaving the EU". That is too simplistic. Leaving the EU could mean adopting the Norway model, but I suspect that if we were doing that you'd be crying foul and saying that's not what you voted for.

So what did you vote for?

We are leaving the EU. OK. To what end? Where are we going? How do you expect things to be going forward? And why are you so sure that your version of Brexit is the version that will be delivered? And even if it is, does it bother you at all that all the other possible versions of Brexit will not be delivered, meaning that less than half of the people who actually voted will get something resembling what they wanted?

I really don't like the EU people. The EU itself is overbearing and has alarming aspirations towards becoming a super state not to mention us is protectionist, exclusionary, encourages westernist ignorance disguised as European (I. E. White) multiculturalism. I could go on. But then again I grew up outside the EU so my life experience has been very different. Since this whole brexit thing has kicked off its like stepping through the looking glass. When I see this kind of thing I see a bunch of white privileged westerners upset that they can't pretend anymore that consorting with French or Italians constitutes open mindedness, globalisation or free trade. It has made me realise that Britain has traded imperialism for a different kind of western supremacy. It makes me want to leave. It would be one thing if Britain has voted to leave because of Liberal ideas (obviously a lot of brexit voters did) but a lot did it for racist reasons or because they wanted purely British protectionism etc. You get that kind of mentality where I came from but in the lower class minority (who tend to be British descendant so maybe there is a connection there). Here it seems to be a majority. Its a shame, Britain is so lovely but the British are so willfully ignorant and proud of it. OK, I'm going to go return to my hard-core Liberal bubble now (the best thing about Britain no doubt is that the population is large enough to be able to hide with your kind of person if you want a bit of a break).

"The EU itself is overbearing and has alarming aspirations towards becoming a super state not to mention us is protectionist, exclusionary, encourages westernist ignorance disguised as European (I. E. White) multiculturalism. "

The EU does not have aspirations to become a Superstate, the number of powers that it does have are very small, and any ceding of power has been done based on democratic decisions made in member states. The member states make up the EU it is not some separate SMERSH type organisation.

All trade blocs are protectionist of their own industries, as are all countries. There are no countries which operate on a purely free trade basis.

"exclusionary, encourages westernist ignorance disguised as European (I. E. White) multiculturalism"

How does it do this? By individual nation states controlling immigration from outside of the EU? Or is this the allegation that FOM of labour encourages less immigration from other countries?

More experts droning on and on about how Brexit will affect their field of work and our lives.

But hey, what do they know?

Slarti-can you give me some names, please? Preferably writers not behind a paywall?

No, Google 'em yourself.

But hey, what do they know?

They don't. That's the point. Ask them how it affected them in 3 years time & I'll listen. Now it's just hysteria & hyperbole.

"They don't"

Ouch that's a burning and well thought out critique there.

They do, outcomes are much easier to predict than you think.

OK, Slarti, I'll try a different question. Who currently is the politician or journalist who most closely represents your views on the Brexit debate?

Or which Brexit did you vote for?

We are just looking for some details. That's all.

Brexit won’t be a disaster. Most countries in the world are not in the EU and manage fine.

That isn't exactly what you would call an evidenced plan for life after Brexit, 5yearplan. How many major life decisions do you make on the basis that "other people do it and they seem OK"?

Manage fine? We were the 5th largest economy. We were doing far better than managing fine.

Other countries have trade deals and are part of trade blocs. We have none if we leave the EU without a deal.

They don't. That's the point. Ask them how it affected them in 3 years time & I'll listen. Now it's just hysteria & hyperbole.

It really isn't. That's the argument people were talking about before the referendum. Two years and three months later, many of the concerns expressed then have been proved to be fully justified, and we now know much more about what we're looking at. We also know that, essentially, two years and three months have been wasted pratting about and we are now six months off Brexit without anything resembling a coherent plan. That's neither hysteria nor hyperbole, it's cold hard fact.

were all those "eu " flag wavers singing LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY, and RULE BRITANIA??????? 2 faced idiots

I hate Land of Groping Tories and Rule Britannia, which is one reason why I don't watch the Last Night of the Proms.

But I will keep saying this until it penetrates people's skulls. Brexiters do not have a monopoly on patriotism. You can be proud of your country (not that I am particularly at the moment) and also proud and happy to be part of the EU. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Suggesting that you can only support remaining in the EU if you hate the UK (as so many Brexiters do) is offensive, wrong, and frankly very very stupid.

No, Google 'em yourself

Common Brexit parlance for I can’t.

"Most countries in the world are not in the EU and manage fine."

Because they are in other trading blocs

And I do find this notion that you cannot be a Remainer and patriotic very bizarre......

"were all those "eu " flag wavers singing LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY, and RULE BRITANIA??????? 2 faced idiots"
Can you explain why they are 2 faced?

racecardriver
You 'hate EU people': do you mean EU supporters, people who work for the EU or Europeans?

Well Brexit has certainly brought out the worst in some people. Harmony much?

More like total polarisation if you ask me.

Sorry I misquoted you racecar, you only really don't like them...