To be heartened to see so many European flags...

[Sarahlou63]

at the Last Night of the Proms? Love the music and general English nuttiness of the concert but really pleased to see so many European flags and hats.

Why wouldn't they want to join when they were promised a land of milk and honey. But it's only Greece and they don't matter.

Only fools believe that a land of milk and honey exists.

But, pray tell, what the many things they could do. It seems to be stumping various economists.

As I said before, clamping down on tax evasion would be a good start. No wonder they are broke if hardly anyone pays their taxes.

Also there are plans for a 9 country defence force, proposed by Pres Macron and supported by Chan Merkel. So, no army?

At risk of stating the obvious, a combined army including nine different countries is not an EU army. There are 28 (soon to be 27) countries in the EU. Anything EU-wide would need a change in the treaties and unanimous consent from all member states.

The leave trolls were going around saying the EU were building an army and we would have to take part in it against our will.

EthelThePiratesDaughter

when I talk about those being ignored etc. I am talking about those that you consider from "Boston, Scunthorpe and Dudley" etc. Non politicians.

They didn't "already have them". Facts and propaganda are not the same thing.

Propaganda pedalled as fact by those in power, yes to cover their mistakes but still pedalled as facts. That what those that pedal propaganda do.

The people responsible for the anti EU propaganda were not the same ones who campaigned for remain.

They may or may not have been but they are still part of the governing body that has allowed it to happen for years before the referendum even took place.

when I talk about those being ignored etc. I am talking about those that you consider from "Boston, Scunthorpe and Dudley" etc. Non politicians.

So it's a problem when people from Boston, Scunthorpe and Dudley are ignored, but not when people like me are ignored?

I don't agree with this idea that people like me have had everything we want and all the advantages for years at the expense of poor working class people from Boston, Scunthorpe and Dudley.

I spent my twenties as a graduate in a well-paid job and a higher rate taxpayer, voting in a Tory safe seat in leafy Surrey. I have never been listened to or adequately represented in parliament. My views have always been ignored, and now as a remainer, I may as well not exist.

EthelThePiratesDaughter

I didn't say that you have had everything that you wanted.

But its a problem when an entire demographic of people is being ignored especially when you can't move the voting boundaries to ensure the outcome that you want.

Imagine that suddenly from your leafy suburb that your vote actually means something, but its not just you that has been ignored its the entire unemployed (random section) section of your town and the next town and the next etc. etc. etc.

What do you think is going to happen when they have a voice and the government can no longer control it by putting them in a boundary area that ensures the outcome?

I agree the consequences are somewhat predictable. But I think it's important to challenge this perception that the "Boston, Scunthorpe and Dudley" demographic are the only ones who have been ignored for years.

The reality is that most people have been ignored for years, as our electoral system isn't fit for purpose.

But when does your typical millennial remain voter get to rebel? When will they be able to stick one to the system when they're stuck paying for Brexit? When they're juggling their student debt and their rent (because they don't have a hope in hell of getting on the property ladder), and trying to raise a family, and being taxed up to their eyeballs to pay for other people's state pensions and healthcare and housing and unemployment benefit, when do they get the chance to say, "fuck this shit, I'm not paying for this anymore"?

ethel

Properly collecting tax might make a dent in 30 years or so.

And the army will obviously only include those militarily capable. It's still an EU army by another name.

And the army will obviously only include those militarily capable. It's still an EU army by another name.

It's only an EU army if it's actually an EU army. The EU can't have an actual army without the consent of all of its member states. Otherwise, it's not an EU army. HTH.

"Mr Macron called for the creation of an EU defence force by 2020 that would give the bloc “autonomous capacity for action” and proposed creating an European security training academy."

HTH

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-joint-defence-budget-french-president-nato-britain-brexit-russia-a7968346.html

There are about 20 - 50 constituencies that count.

Everyone else is ignored. If you live in Surrey or Sunderland your vote doesn't count.

"Mr Macron called for the creation of an EU defence force by 2020 that would give the bloc “autonomous capacity for action” and proposed creating an European security training academy."

There is a big difference between one president proposing something and it actually (a) happening and (b) being imposed on other sovereign states against their will. HTH.

Brexiters claim the immigrant crisis is being ignored so we must leave the EU. Macron proposes a solution so we must leave the EU.

Logical?

I don't happen to agree with either point but you really can't have it both ways.

As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, Ireland is a neutral country. Non-aligned, as far as I recall. Not really a candidate for a Euroarmy.

Ethel

You wrote : "My experience was that from talking to people on Mumsnet, Facebook etc, you would see people posting all kinds of rubbish about the EU, about an EU army,"

An EU army is being planned.

Also, while not a full member of NATO Ireland is a member of the Partnership for Peace and play a role in NATO missions.

A defence force on a specific issue is not an army.

A call from Macron is not a plan.

The statement that an 'EU army is being planned' is rubbish.

*MousseMoose"

euobserver.com/foreign/139854

Try doing a bit of research before using personal insults.

and being taxed up to their eyeballs to pay for other people's state pensions and healthcare and housing and unemployment benefit, when do they get the chance to say, "fuck this shit, I'm not paying for this anymore"?

That's an unusual comment for mumsnet; normally people say they'd like to pay more tax (it must be possible to pay more tax if desired?).
These taxes have been going on for years, surely Brexit isn't to blame for them?

You're missing the point. The millennial generation will be supporting an ever increasing tax burden in a depressed economy thanks to Brexit, whilst in more debt and with less financial security than previous generations had.

It's all very well for retirees and the undereducated and underemployed to throw their toys out of the pram and vote for economic chaos. They're not the ones keeping the wheels on the economy turning, are they?

Ethel

Can you tell me what the lottery numbers are for this week please? You obviously have a great crystal ball.

Nobody knows what will happen post Brexit.

It just wouldn't occur to me not too seek stuff out and read both sides! Surely it's too big a descion to blindly enter into without looking into both sides?!

I did at the time of the referendum, as I suspect did many if not most of the people on this thread. I didn't find the Leave case in the least convincing, but they had the advantage that no-one had ever come up with the nuts and bolts of how Brexit would work so it never got closely examined, and they could get away with a general "Oh, it will be fine, £350m a week for the NHS, immigration controls, Britain great again" schtick.

Since then, however, we've had more and more of the facts revealed to us, including the electoral frauds committed on the Leave side, the dodgy connections with Russia and, most materially, the fact that 6 months off Brexit no-one can honestly claim to have much of a clue about what will happen and how it will work. And all we've had from the Brexit camp is loud criticism of anything and everything the government comes up with without, crucially, anything resembling a coherent plan from them. This is one instance where I would particularly like to seek out and read anything from the Leave camp explaining in a constructive manner what their current position is, and they seem unable to come out with anything more sensible than "Not telling you, but we don't like the government's proposals". So please, tell me what I can read that will make me feel better about Brexit, and I will happily go and read it.

Can you please stop insulting our intelligence?

Legal experts have spelled out the legal consequences of leaving without a deal for a whole host of sectors. This is not conjecture. It is what will happen if we leave without a deal. Planes will not be authorised to take off and land. Financial services passporting rights will be lost. Supply chains will be disrupted. Don't even get me started on the Northern Ireland border issue.

So far there is no deal, and no sign of a deal being done. Hard Brexit politicians have sabotaged Theresa May's attempts to put forward an acceptable proposal on the grounds that they cross their "red lines". None of these so-called "red lines" were on the ballot paper. They are therefore the hard Brexiters' red lines, not the electorate's.

We have repeatedly been told that "no deal is better than a bad deal". This is so patently untrue that you would only say it if (a) you were an utterly thick knuckle dragger with absolutely no clue what you were talking about, or (b) you were trying to soften the electorate up to the possibility of no deal.

Plans are being made to stockpile food and medicine, and Heathrow have made contingency plans based on the possibility that they might have to close for two months.

This is what Brexit looks like.

The only way you can not have a pretty good idea what Brexit looks like is if you are wilfully closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala I'm not listening to PROJECT FEAR!!!"

In which case, more fool you, but some of us have our eyes open.

I'm glad you have your eyes open. You'll get a better view when it happens. And again, no oneknows what will happen. Anyone who says they do are wrong. They are making, possibly, educated guesses.

I'll say it again for the benefit of the hard of thinking.

A lawyer can explain the legal position between two parties to a contract. They can also explain what the legal position between those two parties will be once the contract has expired or been terminated.

It is entirely possible to predict what the effect of Brexit on certain situations will be if we leave with no deal/nothing to replace the current arrangements. It's not prediction such as describing the inevitable legal consequences of a proposed course of action.

*If we leave with no deal."

You have no idea what deals may or may not be made.

What is your solution to the Irish border issue, by the way?

Because the problem is, the government has committed to leaving the single market and customs union in order to end free movement, and also to not having a hard border in Ireland.

As a matter of law, they cannot achieve both those things. They have to pick one or the other.

So their choices are as follows:

Row back on their promise to leave the single market and customs union / agree to Brexit in name only on the grounds that they committed to no hard border in Ireland and upholding the Good Friday Agreement;
or
Leave the single market and customs union and breach the Good Friday Agreement by putting up a hard border, or put themselves, Ireland and the EU in breach of a whole host of international trade laws (including the WTO rules which we are apparently going to "fall back on") by not putting one up.

Those are the only two options. (Discounting of course the ludicrous suggestion that we will rely on technology that doesn't exist in order to have a sort of "Schrodinger's border".)

This is what I mean about entirely predictable legal consequences.

No crystal balls needed.

I don't have. I leave that to the negotiators. But bear in mind future Parliaments can't be bound by a previous one.