To be heartened to see so many European flags...

[Sarahlou63]

at the Last Night of the Proms? Love the music and general English nuttiness of the concert but really pleased to see so many European flags and hats.

What troubles me, as posters on here do vote...

Don't you seek out information? Do you just decide off the top of your head... I love eu. I vote eu?

Like a zombie?

It just wouldn't occur to me not too seek stuff out and read both sides!
Surely it's too big a descion to blindly enter into without looking into both sides?!

Saying things like.. Where do I look to understand leavers pov

You can use mumsnet for a start! There was tons of posts on here for both sides with millions of links.

I dunno. I know mumsnet is an interesting snap shot of public thought and there are so many educated, eloquent posters on so many subjects.

But then one gets reminded we have people who are so black and white about everything they seem to bask, relish in this narrow minded approach to everything!! They can never understand a different way of life, experiences... Points of views.

Ethel... I find some remain posters have drowned and spammed every thread on brexit.

Are you talking about now, or are you talking about before the referendum?

I personally could argue just as much for remaining in the eu as coming out of it. If the vote had gone the other way it would have been OK for me.
I consider myself lucky that I am able to look at most sides of a situation and understand it.
I know many posters on many topics lack that skill and are firmly entrenched in one view. Usually for selfish personal reasons

Well ken Dodd is losing her job so I guess that’s a clear selfish personal reason to be against Brexit isn’t it? As ken sadly lacks the skill to see the other side of the situation and as she did ask very very politely, and since you consider yourself lucky to be able to see both sides, why don’t you kindly cheer her up by giving her some benefits of Brexit?

Sorry. Been away. Spain had a fascist dictatorship until 1975 and Portugal was only returned to something approaching democracy in 1974.

Perhaps they remember.

Why don.t the Austrians who freely elected a man with a very dubious politcal and military history as its President.

Well I'm very sorry she is going to loose her job but so many jobs have been lost due to us being in the the eu.

So how does that balance out? Endless posts and stories of builders, plumbers, electricians loosing jobs and contracts to super cheap East Europeans workers.

These workers typically living in lodgings, many to a room... Diving in, working hard, saving hard and sending money home or saving to go home.

I certainly don't blame them at all!! My goodness what family wouldn't do this!!
But unfortunately, people with a mortgage who had to charge a living wage were drastically undercut.
So yes I feel sorry for anyone loosing their job but I also feel sorry for the thousands affected by the market flooded by cheap labour.
I also feel suspicious of who benefits from this cheap labour. Why we needed it?

Spain had a fascist dictatorship until 1975 and Portugal was only returned to something approaching democracy in 1974.

Correct. Full marks. The countries currently flirting with the far right are the ones who don't really remember what living under the shadow of the far right is actually like.

Well I'm very sorry she is going to loose her job but so many jobs have been lost due to us being in the the eu.

Can you give any specific examples? Jobs being done by foreign workers is not the same as jobs being lost.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-construction-worker-shortage-recruitment-brexit-eu-nationals-citizens-europe-trade-association-a8172466.html

And site listing pay rates

www.tradesmansaver.co.uk/knowledgehub/what-are-tradesman-pay-rates

Cobblersandhogwash

As I said the re writing of history. One of the reasons for the brexit board is the vitriol that was around at the time and posters got sick of seeing it.

One of the reasons for the brexit board is the vitriol that was around at the time and posters got sick of seeing it.

Brexit wasn't really the hot topic on Mumsnet that it is now.

There were, as I said before paid trolls prolific leave supporters posting threads called things like "AIBU to be worried about TTIP?" followed by a dodgy link to the Daily Express, but most Mumsnetters I think assumed that remain would win and we would all be able to forget about it.

The "vitriol" has largely arisen post referendum as it has dawned on people how much the leave vote is going to fuck the whole country.

Oh and someone who is losing their job as a result of Brexit or lives in a particularly affected area such as Northern Ireland or Gibraltar is perfectly justified in being "vitriolic" angry with leave voters who don't have good reasons for voting leave and don't give a shit about the dire predicament they have put people in.

Alleged trolls.

The morning after and for weeks the vitriol spouted was vile. So it hasn't been as "it dawned on people", it was from straight after Brexit wining, There are no victory threads as they were swamped with what can really only be called abuse at those that didn't vote the 'right way'.

Even to a thread about how only the educated should vote.

And lets be honest its only a couple of weeks that Brexit has been allowed back on any board other than Brexit.

Ethel

Do you not care about all those who lost their jobs in Greece due to deliberate EU policy?

During times of population changes in society a number of people turn to political extremes. When immigration is an issue or when the economy is squeezed (credit crunch, world wide economic crisis) immigrants or different groups are often blamed.

Europe is facing a combination of issues an economic slow down at a time of population flux. The right will always thrive in times like this. Any reading of history will see this time and again.

Often political adventurers will take advantage. Groups that feel disempowered or threatened will see anti immigrant slogans as an easy answer that anecdotally will solve their problems.

At times like this you cling to logic not rhetoric. You don't rush for easy answers and isolation. Strong countries stand together and work together an remember the value of democracy and human rights.

Brexit is an easy answer put forward by political mountebanks. Don't fall for it.

The morning after and for weeks the vitriol spouted was vile. So it hasn't been as "it dawned on people", it was from straight after Brexit wining, There are no victory threads as they were swamped with what can really only be called abuse at those that didn't vote the 'right way'.

AFTER the referendum. Jesus H Christ, how many times do I need to say it?

Yes, there was an outpouring of anger when it dawned on a lot of people that actually, remain wasn't in the bag, and yes, the electorate was collectively daft enough to vote for something so obviously stupid.

But before the referendum, when it actually mattered, the leave trolls had free reign to post whatever shit they liked, and remainers were quite aggressively censored whenever they tried to point out that the leave posters were talking utter bollocks.

Do you not care about all those who lost their jobs in Greece due to deliberate EU policy?

Greece is an economic basket case, and they do actually have to take responsibility for that.

But Greece isn't showing any signs of leaving the EU.

Yes, there was an outpouring of anger when it dawned on a lot of people that actually, remain wasn't in the bag, and yes, the electorate was collectively daft enough to vote for something so obviously stupid.

And whose fault was this?

A laid back campaign that was based on calling anyone that said anything about leaving the EU thick and racist.

I believe that
Nobody and I mean nobody, thought that leave would would win. It wasn't until the dying death that someone somewhere realised that the same name calling that had been shutting down the issues of people from various areas wasn't going to work anymore.
throw in that for the past 40 plus years that every single fault that has ever cropped up has being placed firmly at the feet of the EU and you have the damage that has to be undone in the space of a couple of weeks/months.

The whole thing was a massive fuck up from the word go, and they never even thought to put in any safeguards against a close vote or any sort of minimum number of voters.

The one thing that this has succeeding in doing is splitting the nation and allowing those that have been causing this mess even more fucking power.

Yet people are too busy throwing shit at each other to even see it.

ethel

Basket case? Would that be because the EU allowed Greece to join the Euro when they didn't meet any economic test? Or that the EU bank forced austerity onto them?

And whose fault was this?

People were complacent.

I believe that Nobody and I mean nobody, thought that leave would would win.

Wrong. I was saying it for at least two years prior to the referendum and no one took me seriously.

My experience was that from talking to people on Mumsnet, Facebook etc, you would see people posting all kinds of rubbish about the EU, about an EU army, about Turkey being about to join, really all kinds of nonsense, and when I tried to engage with them and point out the facts, they weren't interested. They didn't want a debate. They didn't want facts. They were angry and they wanted a scapegoat. No amount of debate was going to change their views.

Maybe remain could have scraped it if they'd been less complacent and run a better campaign, but a hard core of voters were convinced that the EU was responsible for all manner of evils and nothing was going to change their minds.

Basket case? Would that be because the EU allowed Greece to join the Euro when they didn't meet any economic test?

Perhaps Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join. But do you not think they bear any responsibility for getting their own domestic economy in order? They could start by collecting a few taxes instead of allowing tax evasion to become a national sport.

But they can`t devalue as any normal economy would because they were sold a lie.

There are many other things they could do to help themselves if they got their own house in order.

And no one forced them to join the EU or the euro.

EthelThePiratesDaughter

Were did these people get their views from?

The badmouthing of the EU has been going on for decades. Papers, TV, politicians (some of it justified) most of it not.

Those that had actual issues arising from the EU were ignored or called names or lumped in with racists.

Those hardliners didn't want actual facts because they already had them from years of being told how bad the EU was.

you can't instill a massive background of propaganda and then just get around it by saying "oh actually the EU is good"

The badmouthing of the EU has been going on for decades. Papers, TV, politicians (some of it justified) most of it not.

Agreed. (Thanks, Boris and Rupert.)

Those that had actual issues arising from the EU were ignored or called names or lumped in with racists.

Were they? Jeremy Corbyn, Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart and Daniel Hannan were all given a platform to express their eurosceptic views and were not called racist. Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of being anti-semitic, but I've never seen anyone call him racist because of his views on the EU.

Those hardliners didn't want actual facts because they already had them from years of being told how bad the EU was.

They didn't "already have them". Facts and propaganda are not the same thing. They didn't want facts because they already had propaganda which was less mentally challenging.

you can't instill a massive background of propaganda and then just get around it by saying "oh actually the EU is good"

The people responsible for the anti EU propaganda were not the same ones who campaigned for remain.

David Cameron and the Tories who campaigned for remain were probably guilty of blaming the EU for their own failings and then being surprised when people voted to leave.

Why wouldn't they want to join when they were promised a land of milk and honey. But it's only Greece and they don't matter.

But, pray tell, what the many things they could do. It seems to be stumping various economists.

Also there are plans for a 9 country defence force, proposed by Pres Macron and supported by Chan Merkel. So, no army?