To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

THIS is why there is so much talk about trans issues on MN. This. Not because we're vile bigots. Because women are being shat on from a great height.

In law, only male humans can rape.

I thought the law only referred to "penetration with a penis", not to the sex/gender of the owner of said penis.

If it doesn't, it needs to be changed, before some rapist gets off on the grounds that they're a woman, and women can't rape.

Yanbu, all rapists are men, women's prisons are for women. A man is not a woman. Therefore, they should not have been in there.

I have seen a defence previously of a trans person using their penis to rape someone as an outward sign of their disgust with their own body.

But not sufficiently disgusted to have their tackle lopped off or take hormones to render it ineffective ...

THIS is why there is so much talk about trans issues on MN. This. Not because we're vile bigots. Because women are being shat on from a great height.^
^
This^^

Sexual offences act (2003) (e&w) says:
1Rape
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

OTOH, sexual offences act (2009) for Scotland says:
1Rape

(1)If a person (“A”), with A's penis—
(a)without another person (“B”) consenting, and
(b)without any reasonable belief that B consents,penetrates to any extent, either intending to do so or reckless as to whether there is penetration, the vagina, anus or mouth of B then A commits an offence, to be known as the offence of rape.
and
4)In this Act—
“penis” includes a surgically constructed penis if it forms part of A, having been created in the course of surgical treatment, and
“vagina” includes—
(a)the vulva, and
(b)a surgically constructed vagina (together with any surgically constructed vulva), if it forms part of B, having been created in the course of such treatment.

Yup. Disgusting.

But hey, women don’t matter, which is why this was allowed to happen.

So in Scottish law, a female can be convicted of rape if she is a trans man (apologies for misgendering here - it is for clarity and hopefully fine by the rules as "she" is hypothetical), but luckily, E&W law doesn't state the penis is in possession of a Male.

I’m struggling to understand how the hell a man convicted of raping a woman with his own damn penis can later claim to have ANY understanding of what it is to be female, let alone claim to identify as one?

^^ This. It should be strong enough argument to mean they cannot ever trans or self-id or acquire GRC. Make them a legal woman? I think not.

Ok. But she wasn't a convicted rapist when she was sent to a women's prison.

No they were "just" a convicted violent, sex offender currently on remand for multiple rapes.

Do they have to do a risk assessment? I'd love to see it. |There's this view that "health and safety has gone mad in this country" and that organisations are massively risk adverse but that doesn't seem to apply when it comes to anything trans. I think that 99% of the population could see a problem with this but I guess the authorities are more'adverse to a negative reaction from the noisy, aggressive transactivist lobby than to women being abused.

This man should be in a Male prison. He’s making a mockery out of a stupid politically correct system.

One thing I notice with a lot of these sex offenders is that they have completed changed their name (e.g. here David Thompson to Karen White).

When a friend of mine transitioned (male-to-female) she kept the same surname and just changed her first name to the feminine version of the same name (e.g. Michael to Michaela) but males with a history of violent and sexual offences so often completely change their name and then rather than other names just being an alias which is openly referred to, which they have to include on DBS forms etc, it is considered a "dead name" and the transactivist lobby campaign vociferously against being able to refer to them by that name, It is not just a coincidence that so many sex offenders a) are identifying as trans and b) picking completely new identities.

It is awful that this person was allowed into a women's prison. I can't say what I want to say because MN will not allow it. But I have a very low opinion of people like this, and of self ID, and of the trans movement.

Discussing this case with DH has caused him to peak trans and he was always a 'what's the harm, live and let live' (aka 'I haven't really thought that much about it but would like to be inclusive') type.

Interesting point Pimms, and concerning.

'But she wasn't a convicted rapist when she was sent to a women's prison. Do we know if any biological female prisoners there have been caught sexually touching another inmate? I'm sure they're no angels.'

Oh well that's ok then, house all the rapists in women's prisons because 'they're no angels' yep that says it all about your attitude to women.

A volent sex offender, paedophile and self confessed rapist is meant to be incarcerated in order keep them away from potential victims and as a punishment.

How have we got to the point where they are remanded in a prison full of women who can't escape?

Is so this rapist can enjoy the gender experience of his choice, as mentioned in the link above?

From the Mail

She began identifying as a woman in 2014, but friends told the Sun she was not diagnosed with gender dysphoria - and was a drag artist, rather than transgender.

Not even trans.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6139305/Transgender-prisoner-rapist-identifies-woman-admits-sexually-assaulting-fellow-inmates.html

A volent sex offender, paedophile and self confessed rapist is meant to be incarcerated in order keep them away from potential victims and as a punishment.

How have we got to the point where they are remanded in a prison full of women who can't escape?

I have no idea - but would love some actual answers from our politicians.

My point is that this is a prison, not a convent. If people are in there, they've done wrong and deserve to be punished. I don't know the stats but I assume the overwhelming majority of assaults in prison is carried out by biological females.

I can sort of understand peoples unease at sharing facilities with transgender people. But if you don't want to be attacked in prison, then don't go to prison.

Can I just check what you are saying there mydoctor. That a woman in prison for say shoplifting deserves to be raped because thats what it sounded like. I presume I have misunderstood you because nobody could posdibly think that rape was an appropriate punishment for any crime.

No, not deserve to be raped. You're in a confined space surrounded by criminals. Bad things happen all the time in prison, regardless of what's between the persons legs.

Women prisoners (generally in for non voilent crimes) deserve to be locked in with violent male rapists as a punishment?

A lot of people have issues with the prison system and how it fails people who are vulnerable, people with mental health problems, at the levels of violence and bullying including sexual violence.

So you are saying that you have no issue with any of these things happening in prisons? You are OK with the rate of suicide with young offenders who are incarcerated? You are OK with bullying violence including sexual violence in both women's and men's prisons? You see no reason to try to reduce these things?

It's an interesting perspective and one that very few members of teh public support.

Hardly anyone is going to agree that a woman with a very difficult background and mental health probs who is convicted of a non violent crime (ie most of the female estate) deserve to be locked in a cell with a violent man convicted of sex offences.

I don't believe you actually believe that, if you do I think that you are quite a dangerous individual TBH.

But if you don't want to be attacked in prison, then don't go to prison.

And likewise, if you're a transsexual who doesn't want to get sent to the 'wrong' prison then the answer is equally as simple and that is don't commit any crimes so you won't get sent to prison

So you are OK with suicide, rape and violence in prisons across teh board.

Wow.

Even young offenders? I've never met anyone with views like that before. Please tell us more.

Is murder in prison OK as well?

What about putting paedophiles in the mother and baby unit?

Is that a line in the sand for you?

Good point plants :D