To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

My point is that this is a prison, not a convent. If people are in there, they've done wrong and deserve to be punished.

Wow. Just wow.

You are basically saying that because these women are in prison they deserve to be assaulted. Don't try and say that you aren't. And you are saying that a fucking rapist's desire to have his fucking gender feels validated trumps the women's rights to be kept away from a male sex offender.

If prison is a punishment, then why should trans women's desires to be housed with women be listened to in the first place? Your argument is illogical.

On that (bizarre and awful) basis MyDoctor why are the desires of a male convict, trumping those of females? Why shouldn't he stay in the male prison?

There are 14,000 male sex offenders in prison. And 120 women. There are less than 5000 women in prison altogether.

Approx 60% of incarcerated women have been subjected to past sexual/violent trauma. Only 10% of violent crime is committed by women, and only 2% of sexual crime.

Your opinion that women should be subjected to further sexual abuse whilst at the same time accepting that a convicted rapist will be the perpetrator shows such breathtaking misogyny, it's difficult to believe.

My point is that this is a prison, not a convent. If people are in there, they've done wrong and deserve to be punished.

By being raped?

Can I just mention that 48% of women in prison are there because they supported the drug habits of someone else. They are victims of domestic abuse, have been abused, were in care as children or have mental health issues.

There are loads of differences between men in prison and women in prison.

But ZERO of them deserved to be raped for whatever it was they were sentenced for.

www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php

Besides, so bloody what if a transwoman gets sent to a male prison and has a hard time there? The whole point of prison is that it's punishment so if the transwoman gets given a hard time from other inmates then hopefully it will put them off re offending when they get out.

When you switch the scenario around it doesn't sound quite as reasonable, does it?

Some people just hate women.

It's always eye opening when you actually see it.

But the likelihood of worse things happen when a penis is in there. Please do not think the women there are all hardened criminals. The vast majority have been one or more of:
Victims of abuse.

Victims of DV.
Have mental health problems.

Have been victims of sexual abuse.

Have learning difficulties.

Have lost children.

Sure someone can give you the stats but they are far higher than the general population (which is amazing given how prevalent sexual abuse espescially is).

Yes they should be punished for their crimes. But not like this. And I'm actually someone who thinks prision should have a strong punishment element.

THIS is why there is so much talk about trans issues on MN. This. Not because we're vile bigots. Because women are being shat on from a great height.

^
This.

I would prefer to see taxpayers money focused on the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Is that wrong?

Cross posted with excellent ladies with stats.

mydoctor you do realise that a great many people in prison are there on remand, ie they have not been convicted of a crime. Are they to be subject to your form of violent , extra judicial punishment as well as convicted prisoners?

You do sound very like the sort of person who says if a woman goes out wearing a short skirt or revealing clothing and has a drink then she deserves to be assaulted because she is making herself sexually available to any man who wants her.

Imprisonment is the punishment for a crime, being assaulted while in prison is as unacceptable as being assaulted outside prison and should be treated as such.

Bad things happen all the time in prison, regardless of what's between the persons legs.

So you would advocate for mixed sex prisons then on that basis.

Some people just hate women.

It's always eye opening when you actually see it.

I know. Jeez!

i would prefer to see taxpayers money focused on the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Is that wrong?

So you want prisioners to exact punishment on each other? I'm sure they will be fair.

I would prefer to see taxpayers money focused on the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Is that wrong?

What's that got to do with the subject in question. And you haven't answered why Karen White should ever have been allowed to go into a female prison anyway, if prison is a punishment?

This is where there is such a huge overlap with MRA views.

men and women are as bad as each other / "women do it too it's a people thing" = standard men's rights activisim claim (and very obviously not true :D)

I would prefer to see taxpayers money focused on the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators. Is that wrong?

I don't think you've thought this through mydoctor.

The four women were the victim of a crime. That's why this man has been convicted of it.

MyDoctor um that is entirely unrelated to your original comment.

Please tell us more about why violent male sex offenders should be locked in with women in prison and why the women in prison deserve whatever happens.

I am interested in if you think it is OK for women in prison to be raped by male sex offenders that they are locked in with, if any crime goes. What about torrture, murder. Are those OK too? Rape is a serious crime (we are told) - are there any serious crimes that these men could commit against incarcerated women that would give you pause?

I am also interested in understanding how you feel about the suicide rate amongst young offenders. Presuambly it's OK if self harm is epidemic and suicide common? They get what's coming to them,right?

Please, tell us more.

Note:

MyDoctor does not see women who are attacked in prison including raped with a penis as victims of crime.

So you don't thikn this prisoner should have been charged or anything for these 4 sex offences, and you don't think they should have been moved, presumably. Just let them get on with it.

I would prefer to see taxpayers money focused on the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators.

In that case it makes far much more sense to send transwomen to male prisons.

Think about it now, if the transwomen objects to being sent to a male prison that much but knows that if they commit a crime that that's exactly where they'll be going then maybe they'll think long and hard before they commit said crime.

And if they commit said crime anyway then perhaps being in a male prison will be such a horrible experience that they simply won't risk doing it again when they get out.

Really, if you think about it, sending transwomen to male prisons is a complete win-win situation for everybody, including for those victims you claim to care so much about

Who are the people who did these risk assessments that permitted offenders with this history to be transferred to the female estate?

Is this possibly a panel of experts who ought to recuse themselves under Nolan principles? Because their personal and political agenda do not line up with a clear-eyed assessment of the risk that they are expecting the inmates to bear and the staff to police (with their hands tied about the amount of supervision they can give)?

We need to know who signed off on these transfers and the organisations that guided them.

MyDoctor does not see women who are attacked in prison including raped with a penis as victims of crime.

Or, apparently, even human.

But are perfectly happy to allow men, on the other hand, to sexually assault incarcerated women with impunity. Despite the fact that they have been convicted of sex offences.

Just when I thought the apologists for TRAs couldn't get any lower.

We have one here who is saying that rape is just dandy because the stupid wimmin are crims so tough shit?

Even the UN consider rape as a "tactic of war" and dedicate a lot of effort to address it.
There is a chilling comment at the end of that page:
The Croatian author Slavenka Drakulic.....“Finally, sexual violence is recognized as a weapon, and can be punished,” she says, adding: “We know now, as we knew even before the passage of this resolution, that rape is a kind of slow murder.”

But hey, who cares? They deserve it right? Shouldn't have done whatever they did in the first place?
www.ohchr.org/en/newsevents/pages/rapeweaponwar.aspx

I like the "Ladies with stats" :)

Nobody is arguing women are angels (do we have to be, can't we just be human?). However, the overwhelming number of women are imprisoned for non-violent offences and a disproportionate number are there on remand.

Prison Reform Trust Key Facts

More women are sent to prison to serve a sentence for theft than for violence against the person, robbery, sexual offences, fraud, drugs, and motoring offences combined.6

• In 2015, 80% of female theft offences were for shoplifting.7 ...

• Women’s offending is more likely than men’s to be prompted by their relationships. Nearly half of women in prison (48%) questioned for the Surveying Prisoner Crime Reduction (SPCR) survey reported having committed offences to support someone else’s drug use compared to 22% of men.9

• A Cabinet Office study found that 28% of women’s crimes were financially motivated compared to 20% of men’s.10 Earlier research on mothers in custody found that 38% attributed their offending to ‘a need to support their children’, single mothers being more likely to cite a lack of money as the cause of their offending than those who were married.11

• Women are more likely than men to be in prison under sentence for a first offence...

TV licence evasion accounted for 36% of all prosecutions for women, but only 6% for men. In 2015, 70% of all the 189,349 defendants prosecuted for this offence were women...

Women in prison are more likely than men to be on remand (i.e. not convicted of an offence and therefore presumed innocent) - 45% of women entering prison in 2015 did so on remand.14 Less than half of women remanded and subsequently found guilty are given a prison sentence...

The authorities didn't know this was going to happen, and acted accordingly afterwards. I agree that she is now being punished by being in a male prison, but hindsight is a lovely thing.

Foresight is quite useful.

There are violent women in prison(paedophiles, child abusers,assault, murder), (Rose West, Melissa George),they are not all petty crimes. However i still don't believe biological men should be in a woman's prison

Thank you arranfan.

Those stats are sobering.