To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

Because it is known that sex offenders will always seek more victims this is why there is a sex offenders register and they have probation officers to keep them under some form of control

It's also imprtant for the Press and public to be able to access information. In many cases it is they who have concerns and raise them with statuatory services.

cf DM article this week which established that a convicted paedophile had been hired by BA for Brighton Pride. He had previously breached the terms of his court order:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6143783/British-Airways-hires-convicted-paedophile-drag-queen-Gay-Pride-celebrations.html

Sunday Times today: 'Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?'

"Like most other women’s jails, HMP New Hall, near Wakefield, reflects the fact that women behave better towards each other than men. There are no Victorian wings with rows of cells. Instead the prisoners, even the high-security ones, mix freely together in what inspectors called a “fundamentally safe and respectful” place, with “very few” locked up during the core prison day.

Showers and some “rooms,” as New Hall calls cells, are also shared. There are even children: a mother-and-baby unit accommodates up to 10 infants aged under two.

Into this safe and respectful environment was placed a convicted paedophile who was on remand for multiple rapes, with a long record of other sexual and violent offences committed, as a man, against women.

Yet Karen White, formerly known as Stephen Wood, then as David Thompson, told the authorities she now identified as a transgender woman and wanted to be sent to a women’s prison" (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/why-was-convicted-paedophile-allowed-to-move-to-a-female-jail-nmpbfm272

Re jess phillips saying that people who have committed VAWG should not be put in a female prison.

What, even the women? What is she planning on doing with them?

Sure there are way less but they exist.

This is the prob with this.

IF you believe TWAW then these people should be in female estate like any other woman and managed there >> as per some posters on this thread (who have now all flounced)
IF you don't believe TWAW then obv all go in with the men as they are men

People are trying to say TWAW BUT oh shit this doesn't look right put these sort in with the men but that is NOT LOGICAL.

They tie themselves up in knots because they have to say TWAW but they do NOT believe it for a second.

• What, even the women? What is she planning on doing with them? Sure there are way less but they exist.*

My guess is that because they're far fewer and generally less severe cases, she forgot they existed. But yes, you're right. She could have said 'males'. Or biological/natal males. There are ways politicians can avoid explicitly denying 'TWAW' by dodging the words 'men' and 'women', and get back to the main factor which objectively makes a difference to violent/sex offence behaviours - sex not 'gender'.

lol @ forgot they existed

I think she wanted to simultanously quickly show horror that this situation was allowed to happen (by who> they need to be held to account) and also reiterate that TWAW somehow.

And in doing so she didn't take the time to think it through (does anyone ever when it comes to trans "rights") and ended up suggesting that some cunty people need to be locked in the mens prisons.

Trying to weed out certain "types" of transwomen is not going to work. Either they are women or they aren't. Many men who are violent towards women and girls have no convictions in that area. eg those convicted of terrorist offences often have a history of DV but that is NOT what they are convicted of. Men who are violent to other men invariably commit DV > they are just violent and the poeple at home are easy pickings.
If there is a man who goes to court for burglary and rape, and they only find guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on the burglary, can he go to a womans prison? Or not?
etc etc

Transwomen need to not be in with teh women full stop.
Even if not violent there is risk of pregnancy via consensual relationships, which no-one wants to see, + as we have seen so many behave like men, are the size of men, talk over women like men, and are misogynists! Putting any in with the women will totally change the entire situation for teh women in prison.

Anyone facilitating, enabling or excusing sexual abuse is an abuser by proxy.

I can't argue Upstart.

there was discussion on Victoria Derbyshire show this morning with Dr Nicola Williams from Fairplay for Women, Melissa Briscoe, who had dealings with White previously and attests to his long history of violent offending against women and girls (see the Sunday Times article ) and Tara Hudson a transwoman and former prisoner.

Its not available on iplayer having apparently being taken down.

discussion here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3361150-Dr-Nicola-Williams-on-BBC2-at-10-15-Victoria-Live

Thanks Rowan

The short segment is viewable here.

Richard Garside of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies has some useful comments about women's spaces and prisons:

Very good and helpful Twitter thread:

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1038009545795293186

Plus, this, from the above website:

Transgender prisoners – those, mostly men, who assert a gender identity at odds with their birth sex – pose a challenge for prison managers. Prisons, after all, are social institutions grounded in the gender binary: that one is either male or female. Transgender prisoners challenge such a binary.

The current Prison Rules state that male and female prisoners should be kept separate from each other. This is not a British idiosyncrasy.

The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners state that 'Men and women shall so far as possible be detained in separate institutions; in an institution which receives both men and women, the whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate'.

It does not need spelling out why keeping male and female prisoners in separate accommodation should be one of the minimum expectations for the treatment of prisoners.

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/transgender-prisoners

Good link, thank you.

There seems to be an idea that we have moved so far forward that we don't need sex segregation like those silly third world countries. I've noticed on sci fi recently it's always shared accommodation, like it's so revolutionary and something to aspire to.

Despite the case of White being made public this weekend.
Yesterday the NUC voted to back gender self-id.

There seems to have been little/ limited polling of union members despite this having implications for women as well as those who are transgender:

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3362478-After-some-very-moving-contributions-TUC-unanimously-supports-gender-self-declaration

Thank you Rowan.

Request to ask an urgent question in The Commons today was refused by Speaker, John Bercow (shown in screenshot):

Tweet quotes:
David Davies MP @ DavidTCDavies:
"@ Womans*PlaceUK @ manFRIDAY_ Parliament should urgently discuss placement of male sex offenders in female prisons. Vulnerable female prisoners at risk. Sorry my request for an urgent question was refused. Will keep trying."

James Kirkup @ jameskirkup (Spectator)
"Govt policy put a rapist in a women’s prison. Women suffered sexual assault as a result. MPs asked to debate this and question ministers. Speaker John Bercow said No. That is a disgusting political failure."

I've just seen this analysis distributed by Scottish Women:

395 sexual assaults in UK prisons in 2017. I found that only 5% (21) occurred in women's prisons. We know from recent headlines that 4 of those was by...Karen White.
ONE trans prisoner is responsible for 20% of ALL the sex assaults that occurred in women's prisons in 2017!!

The thread has eye-opening tables and numbers: twitter.com/Scottish_Women/status/1038735274392662016

Richard Garside has been taking some flak for the piece and is handling it with dignity:

So I've been called transphobic by several people this week, including by some who should know better. It's not nice, but it is nothing compared to what many gender critical women face day-in, day-out, year-on-year. I admire you all.

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1040640126630678529

That Katie (Twitter) is all over the place, aren't they?
They say they are too busy mourning a transgender Turkish sex worker who was killed this week, to feel sorry for anyone else.

S'funny. I can find it in my heart to feel sad someone was murdered so violently AND also feel sorrow for the dozens of women who have been attacked/raped/killed worldwide on account of being female as well. It's not either/or.

But Katie apparently feels unable to do that.

Yeah, I can feel empathy and sorrow for all sorts of stuff too. I don't even need to hold it in reserve for things that suit my direct political aims.

But, y'know, socialisation...

A huge that’s because you’re doing grief wrong. You can’t be doing this ‘any death is terrible’ stuff, you know. Nor can you hold the opinion that the death of said sex worker is a terrible thing AND women are also suffering.

Victims must be ranked in terms of how worthy they are and anyone expressing sympathy for more than one or a lower ranked person will be done for ThoughtCrime.

That’s how it works now right?

That's all well and good Babel, but I think I'll wait for a man to come along and tell me that because his opinions are so much more important...

James Kirkup Spectator article:

'If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed'
(extract)
"To recap: the State put a rapist in a jail full of vulnerable women. That rapist then sexually assaulted four of those women. MPs wanted to know how that happened, and to question the ministers responsible for those events. The Speaker of the House of Commons said they could not do so.

The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it.

But even by the dismal standards of the trans debate, where supposedly responsible figures routinely shirk their duties to appease a small, aggressive group of activists and lobbyists, John Bercow’s decision strikes me as repulsive, a disgusting abdication of responsibility that brings shame on its author and his office." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

Just for info;

8 years,166 days,in a male prison

It's common sense really isn't it? Or it's supposed to be!