To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

Safety of women prisoners come first, and if that is transpobic or bigoted, so be it. Can't believe we are having a debate about it, should be non negotioable.

People who were born male go to a male prison, and those born Female go to a Female prison, this will prevent incidences like what has happened, and ensure safety of Female prisoners. I cannot believe this was allowed to happen. What fuckwit gave the go ahead for this.

Rapists and child molesters are the dregs of society, their sympathisers should be locked away with them, in my opinion.

The cognitive dissonance must be hell to maintain for people like LittleKitty.

You know that Karen White hasn't changed sex from male to female. You KNOW that. You know that Karen hasn't magically changed from a male (XY chromosome, penis, testicles, small motile gametes) to a female (XX chromosome, vagina, uterus, large immobile gametes). If you met Karen in the street, you'd know Karen is male. You might pretend you didn't, but you would. Because you know this, it must feel like your mind is transphobic, and it must take a great deal of energy to squash down those thoughts. Exhausting!

Far easier to yell at other people that they're transphobic, and to place male feelings above female safety.

The level of trans hatred on here is sickening.

If this story worries you, be good citizens and don't go to prison.

How is it trans hatred to say that a rapist should not be in a woman's prison. That a rapist who has raped women, wants to become a women has ulterior motives, to gain access to women. How is that hatred! How is it hatred to state fact, that this rapist is not a woman, but an intact Male with a penis, capable of assulting women again with it, which is what HE has done, and this is why we are having this discussion!

I hate these words: Person with a Penis, no its a man.
Rapey-no rape!

The Prison service failed to keep these female prisoners safe, by putting a rapist in with them. I hope that they sue the prison service.

Regardless of gender or whatever gender they identify with a rapist of women should not be in a prison with vulnerable women.

Trans hatred, get over. So the rights of the sex offender trump the rights of Female prisoners safety. Maybe the sex offender in question should not be raping women and assulting them, then he won't be in prisoner. You would not be quick to defend him, if you came across him on a dark night, and he raped you or your daughter!

Where is the trans hatred, nadia?

Please do report it. Mumsnet take a very strict view on it and it's not acceptable.

What I'm reading from your posts is that if a woman goes to prison and is sexually assaulted by a male with a history of rape, then that's her fault?

How on earth do you get to such an extreme position and believe that you're in the right?

The only hatred people are displaying on here, is that a rapist was allowed in a woman prison because he decided to become a woman, probably to gain access to woman, which us why he is in a prison in the first place. If you don't want to be in prison, don't rape, simple!

If this story worries you, be good citizens and don't go to prison.

So again, your stance is 'women who go to prison don't have the right to be safeguarding as far as possible for sexual assault, but male sexual offenders do have the right to say they are a woman and therefore go to a woman's prison where they will have access to more women to sexually assault.'

And we are the' sickening' ones? No sweetie.

Are you going to come back and actually defend your stance like a grown up, or are you another plopper?

That sentence should of course say

women who go to prison don't have the right to be safeguarded as far as possible from sexual assault

The amount of mental gymnastics required to justify this would have me lying in a dark room for a week.

2016 Manchester Pride Protest:

(extract)
"A statement released by Direct Action argued that trans prisoners that are sentenced to jail are sent to the prisons of the wrong gender. They referenced the cases of Tara Hudson, Vicky Thompson and Joanne Latham who were female prisoners sent to male prisons. "Trans people within the prison population are often housed within prison facilities of the wrong gender. Recently we have seen the cases of Tara Hudson, Vicky Thompson and Joanne Latham, trans women incarcerated within male prisons, in the news." "We believe that police officers, regardless of their own sexuality or gender identity, are complicit in the prison system's degradation of human lives and the oppression of LGBTQ people." Jess Bradley, one of the participants in the protest, said: "We have taken action in solidarity with trans and queer prisoners and against the building of a new US-style prison in Manchester."
attitude.co.uk/article/trans-activists-block-manchesters-pride-parade/11931/

Jess Bradley is the currently suspended NUS Trans Officer, Co-Founder of TELI, Action for Trans Health and has advised the Women & Equalities Parliamentary Committee.

TELI (Trans Equality Legal Initiative) www.teli.org.uk/our-vision/

relevent threads discussing JB's influence:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3321764-Jess-Bradley-suspended-Part-II

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323623-Who-is-really-funding-Jess-Bradleys-defence

Rose of Dawn (A transwoman) discusses violent transactivism with reference to Jess Bradley:
'What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?'
"Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community."

Trans hatred? I'm seeing a worrying amount of woman hatred on this thread, although Nadia is a known gf so hoping it's just that rather that genuinely thinking the personal safety of women in prison doesn't matter.

I do have rapist and child abuser hatred, whether trans or not.

May 2018
Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, who has managed men’s and women’s jails, said: ‘I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence.

‘Women prisoners are very vulnerable. A lot have abusive men in their lives, who are part of the reason they have ended up in prison.

"To put all men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging."

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

August 1st 2018
Claude Knights (safeguarding expert, 15 years as head of Kidscape also member of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Bullying and of the Lords and Commons Family and Child Protection Group )
on sex offenders who transition and are afforded the opportunity to change their name and hide their history as a consequence & recent case of "Christopher Noble, 32, transitioned to Christyl Knight while behind bars for keeping a stash of over 4,000 vile pictures and videos of kids as young as six months old"

“Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”
“Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

Source: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

Natal women are being shAt at from a great height. Comparing women concerned about their safety and rights, to Nazi, that says it all. In ffact it's quite the opposite, the TRA are just as bad as the far right groups, shouting down debate, and discussion, and using bullying and aggression to get their agenda across.

Janice Turner in the Times draws attention to the substantial change in women's prison dynamics that the numbers represent if all of the transgender prisoners with a history of sex offences work.

The BBC reality check team confirmed that 60 (48 per cent) of the 125 trans prisoners in jails are sex offenders. That compares with 19 per cent in the prison population overall. Yet, since women commit only 2 per cent of sex crimes, out of 8,000 women prisoners there are only 125 sex offenders. So if the 60 trans sex offenders were housed according to gender identity, it would create a sea change in women’s prisons. There would be 50 per cent more sex offenders; they’d be male bodied, physically stronger and have committed far more serious crimes, including 27 rapes, 13 sexual assaults and seven charges of sex with a child. From: Trans rapists are a danger in women’s jails

There aren't enough women's prisons in the UK to split up the numbers to distribute them (leaving aside the issue of whether this would be a wise move). Consider this, at present, there are no women's prisons in Wales and very limited provision in Scotland.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43190992

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39847109

Does anyone think changing the dynamic of the make-up of long-term prisoners in women's prisons in this way would be anything other than a disaster?

Janice Turner today's Times:
'Trans rapists are a danger in women’s jails'
(extract)
"The prison authorities knew a great deal about Karen White. That under her birth name Stephen Wood she’d served 18 months for gross indecency against a child; that she was on remand for three rapes also committed as a man; that, although she wore dresses and make-up, she’d retained male genitalia. Yet still they put her in a women’s jail.

I’d love to meet those who signed off this decision. What would they say to the four women who, within days of her transfer to New Hall prison in West Yorkshire, White had sexually assaulted? Confining a rapist in a women’s prison, among vulnerable inmates including rape victims, is like locking a fox in a henhouse. Yet they merely followed government guidelines “that prisoners should generally be housed in the estate that matches their expressed gender”. (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-rapists-are-a-danger-in-women-s-jails-5vhgh57pt?shareToken=a5c5b379f8c0f6ccd446176a676344e6

twitter.com/David_Challen/status/1038013581302923264?s=19

David Challen is the son of Sally Challen who was jailed for killing her abusive husband.

Thread here where he speaks about the fear tw in female prisons induce in women many of whom will be victims of male violence.

"So over the 8 years of visiting my mother in prison when a trans inmate appears I have seen fear and heard her and others inmates verbalise it. 57% of women in prison have suffered DV. Trans women are not women. This is why!t.co/jOnAl5dYg5"

What risk assent was taken before placing a rapist in a woman's prison, what common sense was applied! Absolutely none, following Absurd guidelines which puts woman's safety at risk. Heads should roll!

LittleKitty do you understand that a tiny fraction of female prisoners are sex offenders and almost half of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders?

Female prisons are not rife with sexual assault. Very few of the women in there are sex offenders.

If you put in the sex offenders who are transgender and identify as women, you are introducing a much larger number of sex offenders into the female prison estate.

Do you understand that this will vastly increase sexual assaults of women in prison? Do you also understand that there is a strong incentive for sex offenders to falsely identify as trans in order to be moved into the female estate?

Your bizarre fiction of violent, sexually predatory female offenders does not fit the profile of the vast majority of female prisoners and is not in line with the crimes of which they are convicted. Women are considerably less violent than men and far less likely to commit sexual offences. It is ludicrous to pretend that women are going around sexually assaulting each other all the time, it is just not happening. Violent and sexual crime is being committed by men over and over again. It is not happening the other way around.

Re TerfedOff's post, David Challen comments

Ministry of Justice recently published "female offenders strategy, originally supposed to be published in early 2017, has put a focus on non-custodial sentences and community services."

"Instead of women’s prisons, the government is to pilot five new residential women’s centres providing stable accommodation while they complete court orders and access to education, training and support.

The government cited statistics showing almost 60 per cent of female offenders have experienced domestic abuse – an estimated 24 to 31 per cent have dependent children and those in jail or on probation are more than twice as likely to suffer mental health issues as men.

Almost half of all female prisoners in England and Wales say they committed their offence to support the drug use of someone else, the Ministry of Justice said, while many more are substance abusers themselves."

June 2018 source:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-prison-uk-community-sentences-centres-reoffending-rates-children-funding-a8418271.html