To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

I do have rapist and child abuser hatred, whether trans or not. As do I, but this thread is specifically questioning whether a rapist who is trans should be in a women's prison? Read the OP.

@CaptainBrickbeard

The rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization [PDF] is at least 3 times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%). This has been attributed to the fact that a majority of prison officials do not view female-on-female sexual assault as “true rape,” making them less likely to reprimand inmates. Furthermore, as the female prison population has grown at a dramatic rate, states have been unable to keep up. Therefore, female prison facilities tend to be overcrowded and poorly designed, making them difficult to police.

(Quoted from https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2014/09/christina-piecora-female-inmates/)

James Kirkup Spectator:
'Why was a transgender rapist put in a women’s prison?'
(extract)
"Quite how did the Prison Service come to decide that it was a good idea to house the rapist Karen White in a jail full of women? Prison policy says prisoners should generally be housed in the estate that matches their expressed gender, subject to a review by a Transgender Case Board following rules drawn up after a review partly run by an organisation called Gendered Intelligence, one of a handful of small trans rights groups that enjoy an interesting level of access and influence in Whitehall.

Such a board apparently did consider the appropriate place to house Karen White, a person with a penis who was accused of rape and had previously been jailed for child sex abuse. And that board decided that the best place for that person was a jail full of vulnerable women. “We apologise sincerely for the mistakes which were made in this case,” the Prison Service told the Telegraph about the case of the rapist Karen White. “While we work to manage all prisoners, including those who are transgender, sensitively and in line with the law, we are clear that the safety of all prisoners must be our absolute priority.”

What to make of all this? What sharp, snappy, clever new point to draw from this dreadful case? Honestly, I’m not sure I’ve got one. I’ve written tens of thousands of words about this subject this year, all with the same basic theme: this is an area of politics and policy where people in positions of power and responsibility are failing. Failing to apply basic critical thinking. Failing to scrutinise, failing to analyse. Failing to speak, to debate questions that need full and careful discussion. Failing to do their jobs. Failing to listen. Failing women. This case, this stupid, awful case is just another part of that failure." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/why-was-a-transgender-rapist-put-in-a-womens-prison/

LittleKitty1985

The article you have quoted is US not UK.

Yes I'm aware of that tillytop and my post was in response to another poster accusing those who object to this particular rapist being put in a women's prison of 'trans hatred'.

this is an area of politics and policy where people in positions of power and responsibility are failing. Failing to apply basic critical thinking. Failing to scrutinise, failing to analyse. Failing to speak, to debate questions that need full and careful discussion. Failing to do their jobs. Failing to listen. Failing women.

Pretty much sums it up. :(

I honestly hope those women sue, because perhaps that’s the only way people are going to realise that their actions have consequences

kitty

How can locking up a male bodied rapist in a female prison possibly end well?

Sorry TwistedStitch, think I misread your post.

No worries, it probably wasn't very clear.

It's the implication that we only don't like this particular rapist and child abuser because he is trans, as if we'd be fine with him otherwise, that is galling.

June 2018 Ministry of Justice Female Offender Strategy
Introduction
(extracts)
"We know that many offenders are amongst the most vulnerable people in society and that these vulnerabilities can often contribute to their offending behaviours or how they engage and respond to interventions.

2 Female offenders can be amongst the most vulnerable of all, in both the prevalence and complexity of their needs. Many experience chaotic lifestyles involving substance misuse, mental health problems, homelessness, and offending behaviour – these are often the product of a life of abuse and trauma.

3 Although the proportion of women in the criminal justice system (CJS) is small – approximately 5% of the prison population and 15% of offenders in the community– the positive impact of addressing their needs is significant.

1. On average female offender often pose a low or medium risk of serious harm to the public. Yet the reoffending rate among women is 22.9% for the April to June 2016 cohort, often committing nonviolent, low-level but persistent offences, such as shop theft. Furthermore, chaotic lives and complex needs often mean female offenders have repeated needs for services and a disrupted family life.

1. Outcomes for women in custody can be worse than for men: for example, the rate of self-harm is nearly five times as high in women’s prisons. This disparity is highly troubling and it is right to seek to create equal opportunity for men and women in the CJS to rehabilitate themselves. Baroness Corston’s seminal report, A review of women with particular vulnerabilities in the Criminal Justice System (2007), highlighted that the factors that can lead men and women to commit crime, and to reoffend, can vary significantly, as can the way men and women respond to interventions. Our own evidence review suggests that ensuring interventions are tailored appropriately to the particular needs of women can be more effective than applying a generic approach to men and women alike.

1. There is a clear opportunity to take an entirely different approach to this cohort – one that addresses vulnerability, acknowledges the role of gender, treats female offenders as individuals with the potential to make a positive contribution to wider society, and ultimately breaks the cycle of reoffending with all the benefits that brings for families and society as a whole.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719819/female-offender-strategy.pdf

People calling me a "rape apologist" have clearly not even read what I've written!

I read what you wrote and, yes, you are a rape apologist. Shameful.

2009 - 2014, the greatest source of sexual victimisation of women in prison was reported to be from staff, abusing the power dynamic and trading tobacco/drugs/privileges etc:

A 2014 report by the Howard League for Penal Reform found that coercive sex occurs between female prisoners and staff occurs across British prisons. Richie Hoy, an officer at HMP Warren Hill, was recently convicted of assaulting four women in prison. Sexual abuse claims at Yarl’s Wood Detention Centre have also been reported. It appears that whenever you lock women up they become vulnerable to violence by men in power over them. Where are the calls to stop men becoming prison guards?

I disagree with the Independent article from which the above is quoted and its arguments are questioned by recent events. There is a movement to reduce the number of male officials/guards in women's prison estate.

There is a remarkable irony is MoJ efforts to reduce male staff involvement in prisons if prisoners who self-ID are to be transferred into that same estate.

www.theguardian.com/society/2009/jul/18/female-inmate-prison-sexual-abuse

Not sure what relevance that US report has to the UK, kitty and can't find any other background on how they arrived at that figure for female inmate-on-inmate sexual assault which does seem high.

I'm not at all sure that I buy that you give a toss about women being assaulted in prisons. Because from your posts, I read less "sexual assault in prison is a serious issue and must be addressed" and more "But women do it too!" (and therefore these women had it coming, because women are bad too?).

@LittleKitty1985
Your link and info is from the US and does not say what you think it does; it also includes assaults by staff as well as inmates.

Other posters have provided info from the UK, you should look at that if you want to comment about prisons in the UK.

US prison system is totally different to ours.

It's very important to look at it as there are massive massive problems mainly relating to race but it's not for this thread.

The idea that is women in prison sexually assault each other sometimes (which I'm sure happens) then they deserve to be locked in with male rapists is revolting.

Even those who don't give a single fuck about women in prison tend to draw the line at the possibility of pregnancy >> no-one but no-one wants incarcerated women being impregnated.

At least that's what I thought.

Would a transwoman prisoner, let's say a child molester, be allowed into the mother and baby unit in prison if they impregnated another inmate and they had the baby? Trans advocates would say they are an equal "mother" so why not, I assume.

Looking at this only from a male rights perspective is missing, um, just a little of the bigger picture.

It's the implication that we only don't like this particular rapist and child abuser because he is trans, as if we'd be fine with him otherwise, that is galling.

What do you mean by ‘be fine’? The problem is that this specific rapist and child abuser was in a women’s prison because they identified as female.

The problem we are raising is thatas soon as the word trans is used, the usual checks, guidelines and safeguards don’t seem to apply. That means the trans issue is relevant.

No one on here is ‘fine’ with any child abusers or rapists, I can tell you that with confidence

@SophoclesTheFox don't put words in my mouth. & it's not only female prisoners that are assaulting people, male guards are another big concern: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/transgender-prisons-jessica-winfield-gender-recognition-act-a7940561.html%3famp

It’s interesting that Lily Madigan also quoted completely irrelevant American prison statistics when discussing this case. It’s clear that some people rely far more on google than critical thinking!

LittleKitty are you going to put the paedophile transwoman in teh mother and baby unit if they impregnate another prisoner?

To do otherwise would be against their rights as a woman having a baby, I assume.

I assume your argument would be that female peadophiles exist (they do) and so where's the issue.

From that excellent article:

There are already men in women’s prisons abusing them. A 2014 report by the Howard League for Penal Reform found that coercive sex occurs between female prisoners and staff occurs across British prisons. Richie Hoy, an officer at HMP Warren Hill, was recently convicted of assaulting four women in prison. Sexual abuse claims at Yarl’s Wood Detention Centre have also been reported. It appears that whenever you lock women up they become vulnerable to violence by men in power over them. Where are the calls to stop men becoming prison guards? Why the focus on the imaginary trans predator instead of the actual male ones? The answer, is of course, transphobic bias in which trans women are held to be even more suspect than men.

Of course there aren't very fucking many of them and men rape children left right and centre

But hey risk assessment what risk assessment right?

If a man says "I'm a woman" then he should be locked in with the women irrespective of what he's done.
If women don't like that then they shouldn't break the law.

Bowlofbabelfish I was responding to Nadia who was implying that we were only against this particular man because he is trans. I don't know how you got from my post that I think people on here are fine with other rapists and child abusers when I was arguing the opposite.

‘Imaginary trans predator’??

Do you mean that Karen White is a figment of imagination??

I have been thinking about the mental gymnastics.

The TRA's have to say that it is fine otherwise the house of cards come tumbling down. They can't possibly say that KW isn't really trans because that just confirms the fears that the 'evil transphobes' have that say the system is open to abuse. They can't say that better safeguards should be in place because that destroys the 'TWAW' no questions asked.

So they have to pretend all is good and not only that but the women who were assaulted are the ones at fault.

All built on sandy ground.