Do you believe Women can't have penises?

[loveyouradvice]

Just that really.... inspired by the recent sticker campaign.... "Women can't have penises" and "Some women have penises"....

Simple question - simple answer.

Me - Yes, I believe women can't have penises.

I wouldn't mind so much the emperor's new clothes element of it, if one group weren't structurally oppressed by the other

Apologies i didnt answer the question

I do not believe that a woman can have a penis

Jeez asdf

Women don’t hav3 penises

A woman is an adult human of the female sex. A woman does not have a penis.

The word "woman" is a noun. The word "female" is an adjective, which can be applied to non-human animals as well as people, so it is definitely not a valid replacement for the word woman.

The idea of gender has no impact on whether someone is actually a woman or not.

But RatRolyPoly, what you are proposing would cement gender constructs by defining people by gender in law. You have stating that we should define people by how they look / present.

I assure you I'm not. I think anyone should be able to present however they so choose, and that if someone tells them they don't look feminine enough to be a woman, they should tell them to shove it. They shouldn't have to produce a birth certificate to demonstrate their anatomy, and unless that's what you're proposing I suggest we just ask people whether they're a man or a woman and take their word for it.

And seeing as we would still have no proof of their actual biological make-up, I'll say it again, the terms "man" and "woman" are not biological terms at all.

Not even mental ones

Well, if a biological female transitions to male and you believe that doesn't change her sex, then yes. Or is that not a penis?

No of course not.

Any other mind-bendingly ridiculous questions?

Women don’t have penises.

A very significant number of men who identify as trans women have penises.

The usage of words can change over time, which is fine when it’s one of Susie Dent’s anecdotes about the history of bobbins. When the words have definitions which are enshrined in law, and those laws relate to safety , protection and access to sex-specific services for either sex, of course you need precise definitions. Teenagers use the word ‘sick’ to mean good, but nobody wants laws or policies written about the NHS using that definition.

Woman is not a biological term
Woman - adult human female. Which of the 3 words in the definition of women are not biological descriptors? The only one that is open to social ambiguity is 'adult' seeing as we no longer equate sexual maturity with legal adulthood in our society. Both human and female refer to biological status.

The word "female" is an adjective, which can be applied to non-human animals as well as people, so it is definitely not a valid replacement for the word woman

Hadnt thought of that...i suppose people would have to say adult female human, that's gonna be a fucking long box on official forms

When the words have definitions which are enshrined in law, and those laws relate to safety , protection and access to sex-specific services for either sex, of course you need precise definitions

All of the relevant laws allow you to make exemptions on the basis of gender reassignment. If you really have a good reason to exclude transwomen in any legal sense, you can apply these exceptions.

Yes, it takes people applying the exemptions. But we really need to be holding to account the people responsible for that. Not the trans population.

They shouldn't have to produce a birth certificate to demonstrate their anatomy, and unless that's what you're proposing I suggest we just ask people whether they're a man or a woman and take their word for it

Oh right ... for women's sport, scholarships, quotas ... and of course where the woman in question is a lesbian and the man has a 7 inch surprise....

Hadnt thought of that...i suppose people would have to say adult female human, that's gonna be a fucking long box on official forms

...of just a box with an "F/M"? Like they do now?

All in all I think these things are both achievable and extremely beneficial, not only to the trans population but to both men and women alike who will all benefit from the eroding of gender constructs

It's not gender constructs they are breaking down, if anything they are reinforcing them by claiming 'woman' is a feeling and dressing and acting in a hyper-feminine way. However, as I said, if that is what they want to do, so be it. They should be safe and free from prejudice in doing so.

What they're trying to break down is laws and regulations put in place to protect women from people of the opposite sex not gender. Prison is not separated by gender. You don't go to women's prison if you like pink and glitter and men's prison if you like blue and cars. You go to prison based on sex and sex, like it or not, is based on chromosomes and genitalia. Ditto sports, you're not put in the man's race if you have short hair and enjoy watching sports. You're put in the man's race if you have XY chromosomes and all the associated hormones and muscular differences that gives you.

I have a transperson in my close social circle. I want him to be happy and safe in the choices he is making (to present as male). But he is 5ft4, weighs about 7 stone and has a vagina. If he gets into trouble with the law does he belong in a male prison environment?

Equally, I have a daughter. If she gets into trouble, does she belong in a cell with a 6ft4, 18 stone person with a penis?

That is what TRAs are fighting for. They're fighting for the rights of MtF trans people and they're fighting to put their right to safety above my daughter's rights and above her FtM boyfriend's rights.

I don't like it. It makes me uncomfortable and scared for the future for my daughters and people like their FtM friend.

I don't think women's rights should come above trans rights but I certainly don't think it should be the other way around which is what TRAs seem to be pushing for atm.

Everyone deserves to be safe and protected from harm and prejudice.

I wouldn't mind so much the emperor's new clothes element of it, if one group weren't structurally oppressed by the other
I agree.

It's interesting that the group doing all the pushing and silencing is the group who were born biologically male and spent time being socialised as male so they have huge amounts of male privilege in their history, regardless of how they may currently identify.

I'm all for promoting equality and tolerance, but not the oppression of women by a TRAs (who are not representative of trans people as a whole).

Lol. You're going to have to do better than that. In what way do you ensure that you only ever apply the word "woman" to those of the biological sex "female" with only xx chromosomes? Good luck demonstrating that you do. Because you don't.

You go on what people look like and what people tell you they are. That is a combination of their gender expression and their gender identity. Identity trumps expression, because if you think someone is a guy at first glance then they correct you, most people would accept the correction.

And yet men all around the world, in their infinite wisdom, somehow have always known which of the population to sexually assault, rape, murder, burn alive for being raped, deny an education to, deny abortion to, deny the vote to.

Do you think the Taliban asked Malala what her 'gender identity' was before they shot her for wanting to go to school? Do you think Boko Haram asked the girls of Chibok their 'gender identity' before kidnapping them? No. Funnily enough they knew who the females were without any of this gender crap.

RatRolyPoly - are you saying that you would refer to a transwoman as a male? (changing the adjective to a noun for the purpose)

Oh right ... for women's sport, scholarships, quotas ... and of course where the woman in question is a lesbian and the man has a 7 inch surprise....

Oh right, you mean those times when you mostly do have to actually produce ID?? Yeah, if you have to produce ID it's your biology they're interested in. I sort of assumed that went without saying what with it being blindingly obvious.

a trans woman are just as much of a woman as i am. whoever it may be is my sister. women can have penises. and trans men are men regardless of whether they have a vagina

The OED definition of "Woman" is:
"woman
noun
1 An adult human female.
‘a jury of seven women and five men’
as modifier ‘a woman doctor’ "

Collins dictionary definition of Woman is:
"Word forms: plural women

countable noun A woman is an adult female human being. ...a young Lithuanian woman named Dayva. ...men and women over 75 years old. ...a woman doctor."

There are other dictionaries but all reputable ones I've found define Woman in the same, biological, way as an adult human female.

Female is defined as:

1. of, relating to, or designating the sex producing gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes (spermatozoa)
2. of, relating to, or characteristic of a women or female animals

female colleagues

1. of, or composed of women or girls female suffrage a female choir
2. (of reproductive organs such as the ovary and carpel) capable of producing female gametes
3. (of gametes such as the ovum) capable of being fertilized by a male gamete in sexual reproduction
4. (of flowers) lacking, or having nonfunctional, stamens
5. having an internal cavity into which a projecting male counterpart can be fitted

They don't say that woman is a gender, or any sort of social construct. Nor do they say that being a woman is a feeling that men can have.

RatRolyPoly - are you saying that you would refer to a transwoman as a male? (changing the adjective to a noun for the purpose)

I can't forsee a circumstance where I'd have any business speculating on their biology at all. It's not like I'm their doctor after all.

The only time I can imagine I'd have to say it is all the hundreds of times I've been pushed to on here in the hope that I will and everyone will tell me what a terrible trans hater I am.

I agree wholeheartedly with Frequency's post and all of it's explanations. It's the most succinct post I've seen on this subject, and is worded perfectly.

However. DH has a cousin whose (born) son (now daughter) is not much older than our youngest; we spend time with them often and get on well with the whole family. They've played together and been friends since they were young and see one another often. At around 3 their DS refused to let anyone call him his 'male' name and chose a more feminine one. She wears feminine clothes, is known at school by the 'female' name and refuses to acknowledge that she is/was ever a boy, claiming she's always been a girl. She's nearly 9 now and watching her grow through this and with this, it's patently clear that this is a) genuine, b) distressing for her and c) not a phase likely to pass any time soon.

DH is very "he's a boy, he has a penis so he's a boy" as are some of his family. Watching it, though, I'm not convinced. I honestly believe she must have been born in the wrong body because a small child at 3 cannot possibly just decide on a whim to announce they want to be another gender and maintain it for 6 whole years unless it's true.

I honestly don't know what to think. I do know that it's nowhere near as black and white as DH thinks it is, not now that I've loved a child who has begun the process of changing gender.

Exactly Quangot.

A woman (noun) is the word used to refer to female adult humans. Only giant misogynists try to pretend that biology is irrelevant to womanhood.

Women are oppressed because of their female anatomy. They are oppressed via gender which is a socially constructed hierarchy.

Only misogynists actively seek to deny this reality.

Everyone deserves to be safe and protected from harm and prejudice

Exactly frequency