to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

Ignore total loan value hardly anyone will pay it all back, it's essentially a graduate tax, as long as someone does a decent degree at a good university it will help them develop as an academic, show they have capacity for independent study, transferable skills and will open doors. If you do windsurfing studies at an ex poly because you scraped three D's at A level, not worth it.

Also, I chose a traditional collegiate university, and it certainly wasn't overcrowded and anonymous.

But what are the options,apart from hairdressing most apprenticeships seem to be engineering type jobs and the variety are location based so little availability rurally .

YANBU. My DC will be very strongly encouraged to study something that leads directly to a career. If that involves uni fair enough but they won't be pushed to go for the sake of it.

There's no other option.

Dd doesn't want to be an engineer or a finance person or a hairdresser.

What makes you think degrees have been devalued in the work place?

I would in agree with you OP, in theory. I recently graduated in July and my degree subject being in Psychology will benefit my personal future career path. Nevertheless, my partner has been a Politics graduate for over 12 months with no success at finding a graduate job. He regrets going to university and I don’t blame him, although I do think it will benefit him in future.

Agree with FASH.

Other industries like professizonal
Services are increasingly taking on school leavers for roles they previously only gave graduates. Now they will still need excellent A-levels to get many of those roles, but it’s a level playing field against the graduates, there is no real advantage of a degree.

The only caveat id put on that is it can depend on the maturity of the 18 year old.
I went to university and frankly I needed it from a social and personal development point of view. The actual studies didn’t benefit me, but growing up and improving my people skills there did. Whereas colleagues of mine who started in the same role at 18 were already mature and disciplined enough to go into a career.

Now I might have done the growing up at work, but I suspect there’s a risk I wouldn’t have worked hard enough, wouldn’t have behaved maturely enough and ended up either being kicked out or leaving through my own apathy before I turned 20. Getting that out of my system at Uni probably helped my career but for lots more people it probably just delayed their career 3-4 years.

And I’m old, so when I started work insane mortgage companies were lending big multiples to get on the housing ladder. Now In the current market those 3-4 years lost earnings and additional debt could mean years longer to get on the ladder.

I just find not going to university weird. I don't know anyone who didn't at least try it for a year. The vast majority of people I know have a least one degree, a lot of them are already in postgrad study or have a PhD. My parents had university degrees. Their parents had university degrees. Everyone I grew up with or went to school with went to university. I just see it as the same as school. You just go.

In essence, an undergraduate degree is useful in the sense that lazy recruitment departments use it as an easy screening barrier for jobs that don’t actually require a degree.

Fash, the overcrowded campus stuff I've read is during the last few years; when did you graduate? Many students won't pay it back you're right, but someone will have to pay it (including the taxpayer who didn't go to university ). Its also psychologically hanging over your head for 30 years. Also, isn't there is a possibility that "debt" just becomes a normalised way of life for young people, and is that even a good idea?

I know what you mean though, seventhgon, re. a lack of other alternatives and few apprenticeships except in engineering etc. I'll probably do something like Bunty.

Lifelong learning barely exists in this country any more. The government has taken an axe to it. Very shortsighted of them, given that we’ll be working for 50 years or more, and that jobs will change dramatically and frequently during our lifetimes. And before anyone brings up MOOCs, these are in no way a substitute for a university education. Not even close.

@racecardriver I wouldn’t call your experience reflective of the masses 😂

What are the alternatives for school leavers though? What well-paying, interesting careers or jobs can be pursued straight from school?

DH didn’t go to uni after school. He left at 16 and took a job in an industry that’s now dominated by graduates (advertising).

My parents were a teacher and a nurse - both jobs that now require university degrees.

His parents were a p-t secretary and a postie. I’m probably going to encourage my kids to aim a bit higher, assuming they have the brains and they want to. It’s not just snobbishness : when DHs dad retired, after 45 yrs in the PO, he got a really good pension this just isn’t the case for anyone joining the PO these Days. I can’t imagine any of these manual jobs surviving machination over the next decade or so.

So what do young people do if they don’t go to uni? Genuine question.

Loads of jobs have a degree as a minimum requirement even though an intelligent school leaver could do the job.

I'm not sure that STEM subjects are the only degrees valued by the job market. I have a BSc Economics from a RG university which hasn't held me back.

There are many, many advantages of a degree. You actually find that for a number of people who enter the workplace straight from school or college eventually hit a career 'ceiling' and end up returning to education and getting a degree later in life which is a very different experience. These people often find themselves limited to a particular locality due to family commitments.

Dd wants to be a primary teacher. The only way she can do that is to go to Uni! I don't think it's the bee all and end all but it's the right choice for some people.

Ds May choose the apprenticeship route.

I went to college and got my qualification then started working. It was the right route for me. Dh did an apprenticeship.

Life is very different to when I was dd's age and I will support both children in their life choices.

The overcrowded campus thing isn't true of all universities. There is a huge focus on the student experience so many will find they have a much more personalised experience than previous generations.

Your OP reads like a newspaper article...
Canada has a glut of uni educated people which means they take on entry level jobs well below their education (barista or fast food) which hurts those that can’t afford or don’t have the skill set for further formal education. I think countries should cap soft uni subject admissions...how many psych grads does Canada or England really need...

I'm just not sure 'personal development' is even served by university in all cases.

I haven't got all the answers Bog, even re. your genuine questions. However, I think there are lots of really creative and positive alternatives that don't result in £60K debt, but to be fair, it does take quite a lot of creative thought, energy and peseverence to do this, which are probably lacking for many 18 year olds, understandably in most cases. For the more horizontally challenged, even dossing around doing some voluntary work etc doesn't cost £60K!

My children can do what they like. It's for them to decide after having all the facts. My oldest has chosen to go to uni (in 4 weeks) although doesn't know what he wants as far as careers go, my youngest is leaning towards work or an apprenticeship.

I've had my life and now it's their turn to choose. The only thing that I put my foot down on is that there is not an option to do nothing.

My daughter is leaving for her first year in just over 4 weeks. She has no choice because the career she wants requires a specific degree and to even attempt to be on a decent salary, she needs a degree from a good university.

My son will not be going, it would be pointless for him so I'm trying to get him thinking about apprenticeships.

I'm of the opinion that we are sending to many people to uni these days. We need more apprenticeships because it seems everyone needs to be an academic. Trades are just as important and should be valued as such and not give our young folk the idea that unless you go to uni, saddle yourself with debt, then you're not as good. Well that's my opinion anyway.

@anghard it will be for the next generation it think. My experience is a reflection of my age (23 so very much of the you must go to uni to get a job generation) and my culture (family and family friends all ex soviet so pretty much everyone born 1930 and later has at least one degree). If you removed the soviet element there is a good chance my grandparents generation wouldn't have degrees (they were forced into university when their fanily businesses were sized by the state) and possible that one or both of my parents would be degreeless. These days 50% of people go to uni. When you consider social divisions and economic divisions between the educated and uneducated it is likely that a very large proportion of my children's generation will have a similar experience especially if increased automation leads to more people spending longer studying to get marketable skills.

Please stop the snobbery about ex-polys. For some subjects they are very good, and are more likely to offer sandwich courses - doing a year's paid work experience not only tends to improve your degree, it's way better than doing an unpaid internship after you've graduated. An ex-poly degree in the right subject can easily give you an above average graduate salary on your entry to work.

@Racecardriver You've had a very sheltered upbringing. More than 50% of people don't go to university, and of the population as a whole, a great deal more than 50% have no degree, simply because the proportion attending university was far lower before the advent of fees. So if the "vast majority" of people you know have at least one degree, you're moving in very select circles.

Its always their choice, nokids, i would not try to interfere there. but i do think all the hyped up ness about university means some of the realities are forgotten especially around debt.