to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

The overcrowded campus thing isn't true of all universities. There is a huge focus on the student experience so many will find they have a much more personalised experience than previous generations.

This is true. There is much, much more support, and much better facilities for students than there were even just ten years ago.

thats interesting NameChange

@racecar unfortunately your experience isn't the norm across all socioeconomic groups. The government would like 50% of people under the age of 30 to experience higher education (not necessarily all get a degree) but we aren't there yet. Of those that do go to uni we still see disparity between social classes ....not only in whether they choose to go to university or not but where they choose to go.

There is still a lot to do to make university participation representative of society as a whole.

@simple as someone who spent a decade delivering student finance talks I can assure you very few people forget about the 'debt' element. Most have used it to ensure they get the most of of their investment.

Speaking as a lecturer, I won't be actively encouraging it nor discouraging it. It's one option, not the only option (dependent on career choice) and the likely debt is staggering. Additionally, if DS isn't particularly academic (he's only wee) I'd be reluctant for him to go, because that amount of debt to leave with a lower second or below in order to enter a crowded market is nonsensical.

I can’t imagine any of these manual jobs surviving machination over the next decade or so. Not just manual jobs - the demise of many "middle class" jobs is predicted too, anything based on application of existing knowledge rather than creation of new knowledge, roughly speaking. Difficult to predict which way to aim. As a country, the sensible thing would be to facilitate acquisition of new skills and further study at any stage of life. What we've actually done is virtually kill off the means for anyone to change direction in later life - part time and adult study is almost defunct, the traditional "second chance" of the Open University is prohibitively expensive, and you can't get a student loan for a second degree even if your first one was many years ago in an area which has become completely automated.

@meredintofpandiculation that's funny, I think the same about white australian/British people. I think it's sheltered in that unless you understand the cultures and the transgeberational trauma it looks really middle class. Like my race was subjected to genocide and my father was threatened by the KGB on street corners, these were my bedtime stories. I did actually just look up the figures, apparent only sonething like 40% of school leavers go to uni so clearly I got confused with some other statistic so I revise my position to my grandchildren's generation will have very similar experiences

blaa I agree. I didn't go to uni. I had a great job paying around 25k which is a good salary where I live. I had children, worked my way down the career ladder and any full time work paying above minimum wage is closed off to me.
So I'm in uni now but its a career focused one which will hopefully mean I've got a good chance of not ending my days in poverty.
I'm glad I didn't go at 18. I would have been lucky to get a 2.2 and the subject I picked was crap (I had an offer but turned it down)
I've got friends with 18 year olds and I do feel the courses they have picked are wishy washy. I've said to my two that if they go to university they really need to research their subject. Fortunately my 15 year old isn't applying himself so he's unlikely to waste his chance (sarcasm)

I think DC need to decide at age 16-18 if they want a career that requires a degree or just a job that pays the bills. If they have no burning desire to be a doctor or lawyer or teacher etc then surely uni is a waste of time and money when you could be earning and saving for mortgage and pension etc.

@racecardriver your children and grandchildren may have similar experiences to you - parental engagement in HE is the biggest predictor as to whether someone will attend university.
Unfortunately, this will not be true for everyone unless something drastic is done to address social mobility in the the UK

@dona I teach a subject which attracts a lot of career changers ...your story isn't uncommon. Many people forget that you don't have to go to uni at 18. Good luck

I would be unenthusiastic about surfing at Torquay uni but enthusiastic about maths at Cambridge.
There are degrees and degrees.

@Blaablaablaa mine will unless we go bankrupt but I meant as a generation it will become increasingly common. My upbringing was definitely.... Special. There are a lot of people like me put there, mostly children of migrants or children from long term wealthy families but it's not really that many. Not yet anyway.

I agree with university however I don't agree with going at 18. I think that it should be for 20 years old + with an exception for medicine etc. Most teenagers have no idea what they want to do at 18 and to ferry them into pointless uni courses that they will decide that don't enjoy anymore or won't get them anywhere is a waste. Young people should work and experience the real world and complete volunteer/work experience to find what they truly want to study and have as a career

I'm in a job where I do the same as those with degrees but get paid less. This is because I cannot progress to the next grade without a degree. My manager is great and often pays me an honorarium because they recognise the work I do.

However, it's still frustrating and given I'm on a final salary pension it will have a longstanding financial implication.

I will encourage both my DC to go to uni. I would hate for them to be limited professionally like I am.

@dona have to agree about not choosing wishy washy subjects. Unless you are just trying desperately to get into a top uni to find a husband in the law/medical department/with family money (yes, girls I went to school with did this) there's no point. Quite spoiled actually.

@racecardriver like I said parental engagement in HE is the biggest predictor of HE attendance...ie if you go to uni it's likely that your children will. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of work to be done with first generation students ( among others)

I still think it's worth it if you are academic and go to a good red brick. Unfortunately, over the last decade there was a push to send all children to University. Agree with lots of the comments on here. If you have scraped in to an ex poly with low grades to do media don't bother. That sounds snobby but these degrees just keep people in jobs teaching them. Lots of people do very well without a degree. Also, reference Angharad's comment. I know a few people on graduate schemes with a Politics degree (government etc) It's actually quite a good degree to have. Your partner may well yet get a good job.

I agree OP

I was nearly there with ds2 suggesting that he go straight to an accountancy office rather than university

Unfortunately he had work experience in May and its put him off starting a job ...he is going to university to put it off for another few years

I blame his school for that

@SimpleMathsQueen I graduated about a decade ago, but my cousin is currently at the same college at the same university I went to, the entrance requirements are high and you do have to apply to a college as well as the department, the intake in her year (2017) was the same size as my year, much like I did she can walk into the dining hall or college bar alone and guarantee she will know most if not everyone there. If you go to a modern inner city campus I'd imagine the anonymity you speak of, and it's why DH chose to study in London, it's what he wanted. I wanted somewhere I could walk down a cobbled street and know the people around me, go to formal dinners, get a great education, being taught by respected academics and lots of worthwhile extra curricular activity (which is often more impressive than the degree at interview as a new graduate). Being from a working class background it also gave me social and intellectual confidence, recognising I could easily hold my own amongst privately educated peers, and this confidence has transferred to my career, I have been promoted a number of times and told I'm the youngest candidate to hold that position. University gave me that. On the flip side my brother went to college but not uni, is now a specialist plumber and blue print planner and earns a fortune. It has to be for the right reasons and for the right people. His path wouldn't have worked for me, not mine for him, but I definitely don't think university is a waste of time now. I also don't see student debt as having over my head, it isn't even taken into account with credit scores, mortgages etc.

In Scotland there are Graduate Apprenticeships, they sound amazing. A cross between uni and work. In 4 years you get a degree while simultaneously working- average wages I’ve seen around £20k to start. So you leave with no debt, a degree and 4 years of work experience. The degrees are from recognised unis too. Win win.

I know quite a few uni graduates who have chosen their local uni and lived at home to cut costs. And who have also worked part time through their uni to offset costs. It can be done.

My daughter is about to graduate as a nurse. She was fortunate to live at home (local uni) AND work throughout and will graduate with no debt. However I am not sure if the NHS bursary is still available for new undergraduates.

Son left uni and walked into an extremely well paid graduate entry job, but I accept he was one of the lucky ones. His job has no bearing on his degree but it was graduate level entry.
Lots of jobs still are, and it really depends on what path they want to take in life.

Professional careers (health & social care, teaching, law etc etc) are all degree dependent.

Ds1 was the first in our family to go to uni...dd will be the first female

There isnt even a record to break there ds2

@blaablaablaa yes, so I expect the proportion of tertiary educated people to go up so that their children and their grandchildren will have a similar experience to me iyswim. In my case it was a bit of a blip that resulted from policies enacted by an autocratic regime. In the next twenty to thirty years I expect numbers to go up as a result of unskilled labour being made more redundant as a result of better automation so more people will turn to uni in the hope of finding a job until university just becomes another step in the normal educational experience.

@Racecardriver Sorry I didn't mean sheltered in terms of life experiences, I meant sheltered in terms of the educational experiences of the people in your circle. And your post about your history appeared while I was composing mine - this thread is moving quite fast.