to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

I have a degree and masters. Never used them
Always struggled to find work despite them. I work in an entirely different sector now (which I spent money learning) and have assets however had I not gone to uni I would probably have more money. I would probably also be a different person not necessarily in a bad way. I worked all way through uni but not in a place that looked good on my CV. I already worked before uni and had already moved out so I wouldn't argue it was beneficial for life skills
I had no idea what I wanted to do other than rise academically. I realize howveer that things may have changed for young people now (I'm 34).

Thanks to all. Many of your posts have resonated with me.

DS has just finished three academic A levels with decent, not RG, grades but doesn't want to pursue those avenues. So he's taken a four week practical Cordon Bleu course to enable him to spend the winter cooking and skiing, and he may then cook more in another setting. And while he is earning a living, he will have time out to have fun without academic pressure, and to decide what he wants to do next. And then, he may apply for university when he's 20 or 21. If he's going to rack up £60K in debt, he feels it ought to pay off long term.

His teachers are split in their views: some thought he should get into the UCAS system pronto, but as many felt his exploratory phase would be well spent.

Things are just so different now and I think it's really hard for today's 18 year olds! There's more pressure to go to uni as so many people do so it feels you have to in order to compete, but at the same time it's more expensive.

I have a degree, MSc and PhD and didn't pay for any of them! How is that fair?

My DH went to uni but regrets it - he didn't need a degree for his field and thinks it was a waste of time.

We will not be encouraging our DC to go unless they want to. We'll try to think with them about all the options available and support them in whatever they decide to do.

Apprenticeasips can go all the way to a L7 qual which is post grad. They are not all about the vocational trades they exist also for finance, hr, general management, retail, hospitality, etc. I welcome a system that takes and develops good A'Level candidates as did the civil service and much of industry in the 60s and 70s. A good a'level apprentice is likely to have a better fpundation education than a graduate with a 2:1 from a lower ranking uni or even someone with a Masters in something like HRM. I have three at present and they are head and shoulders above their masters counterparts.

Paradoxically I think it's the russell group graduates who are most likely to repay the debt. I strongly believe there needs to be a contraction in student numbers. Meduocre degrees have become ten a penny and many many a'Level entrants are higher calibre employees.

Another one here sick of hearing snobbery about polytechnic degrees - usually from people with no direct knowledge of them. I have one and have a 30 year successful career in my chosen profession under my belt and now a CEO. Also know many successful alumni from my poly - both in terms of financial success and valuable careers in society.

Bruffin - thank you - informative re paying back the loan. I’ve been out of education for decades and when I realised that loans/fees mean tested on parental income I was scared (lone parent and struggling). Seems more doable now if DS wants but only if he’s sure. I’d be happier if worked for a year or two before deciding.

I’m with spangly - we need to be less snobby re education. I do feel that a well organised apprentiship could serve a young person well as opposed to wanting to spread your wings at uni on any course you can get on to but rack up huge debts.

I spread my wings in the 80’s and back then the idea was to go to a uni as far from home as possible. It was free. A new world order now and I see quite a few young people at their local uni and living at home.

Things have changed.

howrude

My dd is off to Cardiff next month. Her course qualified for a Welsh NHS bursary which would have paid her course fees, but she got such a low maintenace loan, 1k bursary a 2.3 k loan she couldnt afford to live.
Short term she was worse off, medium term although her loan would be very small, she would be paying back the same as someone who had full loan for course etc earning same wages
It is only in the long term if she became a very higher earner it would she be worse off. So not worth her taking it and she wont be tied to working in Wales for 2 years after qualifying.

Alternative way to spread wings is Camp America. Dd just finishing 3 months out there. Very hard work, but sounds like she has had a wonderful time and then ending up in New York for a week.

I got a 2:1 (almost a 1st actually) but I was the laziest SOB at uni. I actually think that a lot of the young guys I meet on jobsites are more screwed on than some of these spoilt brats I see waddling around some of the unis I regularly deliver to.

My mate runs a smallish demolition company and is absolutely raking it in. He had several years experience in the real world by the time I graduated and got my first proper job. I think it's different tho if your degree is specific to a job aspiration (e.g. medicine).

I have an arts degree, which I did because I wanted to teach this subject in secondary schools. This is exactly what I do and I really enjoy it, and am making a successful career. I do still have 22k debt - this is slightly more than I left with due to interest, and I graduated exactly 10 years ago.

This is because in this 10 years I have had two children, two maternity leaves, 2 years being junior and low paid, several years being part time, and 18 months living overseas and not working at all. The academic year just passed, for example, I was working 3 days per week and my student loan deduction was 4 pounds per month....

I now work full time and my student loan payments will increase of course. Will I ever pay it off in full? I don't know. I don't know if I will continue to work full time or what will happen in the future so I don't even think about it. I just view it as a tax that enables me to work in a professional job.

When I went, back in the late 70s, a degree was free of charge to the individual and because only 10% of the population had the privilege of going, you really did not need to worry too much about the subject chosen. That said, I graduated in 1981, in the midst of a recession, and jobs of any description were hard to come by. Over time we did all get jobs, and I would say that my cohort have done very well over the subsequent years.

My elder daughter did A Levels in 2009 and was in a quandary about whether to go to university or not (no great desire or specific interest outside sport). Had there been jobs or apprenticeships on offer at the time, I would have guided her along that route. For want of anything better coming along, she went and did a degree in Sport and Exercise Science, which she enjoyed - but work in that field is poorly paid, unless you go on to do a MSc and specialise. Even then, the field of sports science is highly competitive. She enjoys coaching youngsters, so eventually went into primary teaching, for which any degree is acceptable, and she is doing well. At that point the annual fees were under £3000, so she is not crippled by debt. So the decision to go was valid in the end, on top of the social and personal benefits she gained from living away from home.

My younger one was always set on doing Physics at university, which she did, under the current £9,000 a year set-up. Being quite canny, she dropped down from her MSci course after the second year and graduated with a BSc, which then allowed her to transfer to an MSc run and funded by the university, for which she applied for a £10,000 bursary (she qualified on the criteria of being a female taking a stem subject, having been to a state school). So in her MSc year she was quids in to the tune of £16,500. She is currently training as a clinical scientist in medical physics.

So three examples from decisions to go to university in different eras and under different regimes.

I think my advice would be, under this current set up, to think long and hard about what and where to study; to fully investigate future employment opportunities; and to make the most of any opportunities for work experience / internships / paid employment along the way (in holidays, a year's placement as part of the course, etc.) - in order to maximise the likelihood of finding work on graduation.

crippled by debt
I don't see the loans this way. As tomhazard said before you, it's unlike other debts or loans that can cripple you financially.

Not everyone who gets a degree goes to university at 18. I went back to study at 30 years old and, over the years, gained a degree, Masters and PhD (and a PGCE). My sister also entered higher education as a mature student and came out with a Masters from Imperial College.

My sons (17 and 19) will probably venture into higher education after they have matured a little. They had a rocky ride at school and I am happy that they are, at least, working at the moment. Like me, they have battled with mental illness.

OP stated that she believed in lifelong learning. I work in that sector and for many people, university is simply not possible until they have a greater experience of life.

I think apprenticeships in trade are much more inviting these days.

Yes, a couple or few years of below minimum wage, but once you are fully qualified as an electrician etc. the pay is incredible and there will likely always be private work or jobs (depending on your preference)

Will only encourage people to go to Uni if they NEED a qualification such as to be a lawyer, doctor etc.

I agree changed some of the most interesting people I know didn't know what they wanted to do after school and have gone back to study years later, some in their 40s and are doing very well. One is a podiatrist, one a multi national director and the other a senior teacher.

I have just graduated, we were the first year with 9K fees. I did a degree which automatically led to a job at a RG uni but I would have gone regardless. I think that university has taught me so much, and I have gained so much more from it than just a degree. It's about so much more than just getting a good job. I have learnt a new language, learnt 2 new sports, had lots of opportunities from it like travelling abroad and organising conferences and things, ive made great friends and tbh I just had a fantastic 5 years. I am so much more confident, which much better social skills and just so much more grown up than I was when I went. I don't think I would have developed in the same way if I hadn't gone to uni.

Of my friends who didn't go, 2 have don't apprenticeships and are doing really well, people who were never going to go are doing well. But those that could have gone that didn't are sort of stuck in the same jobs I was doing before I went to uni, they are still living at home and I think I have just grown up a lot more than most of them. They are still the same as when I left shcool but I am very different. I think for a confident person they would be fine but for a shyer teen uni really helps.

University is about education, I think there's value in humanities and languages as well as stem. Friends who have done humanities at uni at I have good jobs. They still teach skills on top of the degree. DP went to an ex-poly and he now has a good job with a good wage better than many of his friends who have worked for 5 years to get to the same place he has. Yes they don't have the debt but I think they have missed out on the other things that uni brings, all the fun of uni and moving out of home, all the opportunities it brings.

We are working for a very long time, I am happy to postpone it for 5 years doing something different. I have 70k worth of debt, DP has 55K and tbh it was both worth it. We aren't paying very much back each year, if it doesn't get you a good job and you end up on 20k then you don't pay anything back, if you do get a good job yes you pay back but you have a good job.

I think everyones different, but I wouldn't discourage someone from going to uni if they wanted to go. If they can get an apprenticeship great but I think the people who just haven't gone to uni but haven't done anything else aren't in the same place people who went to uni are now, and I would discourage my DC from taking that path. There is importance I think in further study, I don't think life is just about earning money though.

My post is full of typos, uni is clearly not as valuable as I thought

I agree with everything you've said dish

I left school at 16 18 years ago and went straight into a job. I don’t regret it. I don’t earn a fortune but I got on earlier in life (had a mortgage when I was 19) and have worked in the same industry for 18 years. I know the job market has changed a lot since then but I think I’m the long run I made the right decision.

I read recently that a degree can add £100,000 to your lifetime earnings. Big deal!

I really hate what higher education has become. I hate the way 18 year olds are being bundled straight into university from school, some of them ending up with useless degrees and thousands of poundsworth of debt for nothing.

It is good that more people have the chance to go, but they should have the chance to go out in the world for a few years first, then they can make better choices for their future.

@tonton no degree is useless if the student makes the most of their time at university.
The graduate premium can be much higher than £100,000 especially for women.

I'm sure the article I read about how much a degree could increase earnings was split between men and women and then further split into university by ranking.

Studies usually spilt graduate premium by sector as that's a more meaningful data set.

When I read some graduate premium research it looked very dodgy. The comparison with with people with 2 or more A level passes at any grade who did not go to university. The paper had the figure of £100,000 benefit over a lifetime so may be the same as that noted above.

My guess would be that this would include a far higher proportion of people with lower grades than those going to university, possibly more from less prosperous backgrounds, and no mention made of the impact of degrees such as medicine and dentistry in bumping up the graduate average.

Ah yes, sector too, I forgot that bit.