to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

@Racecardriver
Dh and i were born nearly 60s. We both left school at 16.

*Early

Mere, the university where I teach is not Oxbridge, but we still seem to send a lot of our humanities students out to perfectly respectable careers. Otoh I know a fair few STEM graduates who have struggled to find work or ended up working in unskilled jobs. No guarantees, of course, but that is one thing I think we should be telling our students (no, actually it's something we do tell our students, but that they should already have been told at school): that your degree is only as good as the use you make of it.

@cory yes! Students need to realise they are not 'buying' their degree or fabulous graduate job. It still requires hard work.

An impact of the consumerisation of HR unfortunately

There is more to apprenticeships than hair dressing and engineering. My firm offers apprenticeships to train to be a solicitor.

@BlaaBlaaBlaa I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the point I was making was rather different.

In this thread we're discussing whether Uni is worth it, so we're talking about people who are amongst the population who might go to uni.

The only figures we have compare graduate earnings with all non-graduates ... including all those who wouldn't be going to uni anyway because they're not that way inclined or don't have the qualifications. And the median salary of this group is likely to depress the median salary of the non-graduate group quite considerable.

So the "graduate premium" may be £10k pa (FT figures) or £160k over a lifetime (the figure you quote), but the point I'm making is that we don't know the expected (in the statistical sense) difference in earnings between graduates and people who have a real choice to go to uni and decide not to - all we know is that it'll be less than the figures quoted above.

I agree with you op it's not for everyone, kids should only go if they have an interest in the subject and a chosen career path after.

I do not agree on the debt, it's just a tax, and I don't see the issue with the tax payer paying for kids further education, it was always that way, with bursaries and grants anyway. It's not classed as debt as such for many things, ie mortgages, and I'm happy for my taxes to be spent on someone's education. But I'm not happy for it to be spent on kids who are there for the experience and social life, fuck about in their degree, and come out into jobs that don't need a degree.

I also don't believe degrees are devalued, I think the right degree from the right uni has huge value, but something like media studies from an old poly clearly not.

However this is the land of equal opportunity. Further education is pretty much available to everyone, even if you're only doing it to fanny about for three years.

Hi Version, yes there is study resulting in a degree/degree level qualification, same as with some engineering apprenticeships. It’s called Trailblazer, info on SRA/CILEX/Gov websites.

Version no day release as such, depends on the level they are at. Early on they have around 10% off the job study time during work hours but it reduces as they progress. The exams they do are really tough so it takes a lot of commitment, definitely more than I had as a full time student.

Law has a history of not requiring degrees though- articled clerks and all that. Will be interesting to see what SQEE brings.

I wouldn't advise anyone to pursue a career in law tbh as there is a lot less money to be made than 20 years ago when I first qualified...a lot of law firms are going under. In my area (personal injury) most firms employ largely unqualified staff- and with foryjcpmong legal reforms even they won't have jobs in a few more years.

I don't think you can compare uni/ non uni salaries in a meaningful way across the board...As was said there are some people with the best will in the world who will only ever be able to do a fairly menial, minimum wage type job. Also there are others (arguable more in the non uni group) who are not particularly motivated or career driven.

I know at the leading insurer I work with there is no requirement for a degree or a masters even with senior staff...plenty don't have CII qualifications either.

I do think the landscape is changing and more employers are seeing that insisting on a degree is counterproductive. Better to employ a person who shows some actual interest in and aptitude for the role than to rule them out automatically in favour of someone with a degree in fashion merchandising from ex FE college turned university...

forthcoming legal reforms that should have said!

Google 'no wrong path'
University directly from school is definitely the right option for some but the idea that it should be the preferred option is nonsense.
Apprenticeships and college courses are wide and varied, have different levels and the qualifications gained can contribute to university entry if an individual subsequently decided they wanted to gain a degree.

Some school leavers thrive in a college environment, others in the workplace, others in university environments. A variety of different routes with the potential for the same outcome.
Employers far more switched on than many parents.
No wrong path!

I went to university in 80s (I didn’t pay). I have young ds and the pressure is hitting him as he goes into year 8.

He’s keen to go to uni (which I find bizarre in 12 year old).

Had a convo with a friend. She plans to sell her btl to fund her ds uni. I don’t plan to sell mine. But she convinced me that kids really don’t want a huge loan paying back at the point they are wanting to get a mortgage. I’m coming around to her thinking.

My worry is that degrees will be practical and, as a country, we’ll lose out on philosophers, linguists etc.

There's a lot of snobbishness on here re degrees too...

• one of my best friends has a Media degree from an ex poly, she's a Head of Comms at one of our largest FMCGs on a six figure salary

• another with same degree is a PR account director for an international sports brand also on six figures

• most of my colleagues/peers have marketing/PR/media degrees averaging salaries of £60k +

• I employ two people with fashion marketing degrees in a marketing role - nothing to do with fashion mind you but the marketing techniques and creativity are certainly valuable.

• As yet I haven't employed anyone with a "traditional" degree unless you count American Studies from a Russell Group. In my industry the degree is indeed expected but with the exception of English a marketing/comms/PR/business degree is generally favoured.

Don't get me wrong I think there needs to be other choices not just uni but don't go bashing what you clearly don't know anything about.

I went to university. I had no debt. My parents had provided for me with an RESP, but even if they hadn't, my debt load would still have been minimal.

I went to a 4-year nursing program but spent the first two years attending a college. In Alberta all students who graduate with an average of 80% or greater in their core classes are eligible for the Alexander Rutherford Scholarship, named for the province's first premier. This is a non-competitive scholarship; all students who apply for it and are eligible are given it automatically. The Rutherford covered most of my tuition for the first year. (I think I paid the equivalent of about £60.) In later years I received additional scholarships and I also worked part-time.

I don't think EVERY person needs to go to university, but I DO think everyone should have some sort of education beyond high school. Once you start working it's often very hard to get back into education. If you're not sure what you want to do, I would recommend a year or two of general studies at a college. Usually these types of programs allow you to select your own courses. If you decide to go into a different program, you might then be able to get credit for these courses rather than having to repeat them.

I teach at a college. (In Canada a "college" usually offers certificate programs, usually a year or less, diploma programs, usually 2 years, and sometimes applied degrees, usually 3 years.) One of the things my college prides itself on doing is working directly with industry stakeholders so that our programs enable graduates to get jobs quickly. Our programs are designed to provide the skills employers want. I think the college currently has 17 different post-secondary programs and I believe they plan to expand that to 30 in the next few years.

Interesting Spangly

I’d have no problem with my ds studying anything if he showed an interest but I worry about the loan and repayments.

Most of my generation friends went to traditional universities but their children are either doing apprenticeships or at ‘new’ universities studying what they want on an environment that they like.

I’m looking hard at apprenticeships as I’m still not convinced re uni offerings and the huge price tags. Up to ds and I’ll support him either way but I’m not convinced uk education provides value for money.

@howrudeforme I agree re value for money, there's a reason that universities are increasingly the only landowners with any cash - check out how many are on buying sprees...

Had a convo with a friend. She plans to sell gher btl to fund her ds uni. I don’t plan to sell mine. But she convinced me that kids really don’t want a huge loan paying back at the point they are wanting to get a mortgage. I’m coming around to her thinking.
They are not paying beck huge sums, its like a tax, the amount of debt does not affect how much they pay off.
The pay back 9% on earnings over 25k, at 30k, it works out at just over £30 a month , 40k £112 a month. The loan is written off at 30 years

@agnurse Canada has a great system. for one you can do some of your entry courses at a close to home no name college and transfer to a bigger better name site so cut your fees in half. you can take almost all programs part time or less (you use to have up to 8 years) and if you fail courses they are all individual and you can simply retake it.
the problem with the canadian sites is that for many who live out of the city, room and board (even in res) is expensive.

all three of mine did different canadian options 4 straight years at UVic ($80K ), 8 years PT at TRU again $80K mainly due to housing, 4 years at SAIT again $80K. tuition is nothing compared to room and board fees.
of the three the SAIT grad earns the most (diploma in instrumentation)
some people are into the "name" of the institution vs the course program hence the strong affiliation to UofA vs UofC.
we earned well enough to pay all their fees, but not everyone can do that.
after all my years of experience i believe universities are money making institutions not always interested in the students or the job option aspect of what they offer.
i still see too many diploma in history or english grads working in starbucks for minimum wage. so many so that young hs students can't get a job at McD's.

My parents were the first of their respective families to go to university in the 60s/70s. Being a graduate back then meant they were offered a better mortgage etc.

I went in the 90s and did a professional degree. I couldn't do my job without it (vet). I had a great experience going away to uni, and it was one of the best times of my life.

With my children, I feel (and have told them) that maybe they should only go to university if they need to. BUT. If they want to have the experience I did, and they want to spend the time doing a degree in something sensible I will support them. They each have a child trust fund that we have paid into, so if they don't want to use it for university they can do something else

I'm not sure if is always necessary, or even the best way forward, but if they need it or want that experience I will facilitate it. I do not think a university degree is the be all and end all, at all.

The debt isn’t an issue.
The majority of professional jobs and fields I know people in require a degree.
No they are not the be all and end all, yes there are other routes, but the majoroty of people I know in decent earning roles required a degree.
I wouldn’t ever actively discourage it. University is a bloody brilliant life experience.

I'd say university is a brilliant experience if it is right for you. But as a lecturer and personal tutor I also see students for whom it is not a brilliant experience: failing students, suicidal students, students who were too immature to handle the expectations of independence, students who have been caught out in cheating or plagiarism. My conclusion would have to be that you should go to university IF you feel it is right for you, and you should go WHEN you feel you are ready. Nothing wrong with a gap year working, I wish more students took them.

Spanglylycra

I agree re the snobbishness on here. But mumsnet often has these bees in their bonnet about things.

The unhappiest people I know at 51 went to RG unis! Then if they went into highly competitive professions they spent their 30s and 40s in high stress careers. A couple have left and set up as yoga teachers/fitness instructors.... So maybe dd1 will have a head start!!