to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

I'm a teacher. My DH is a teacher. Our eldest DS (19) is not going to uni. He started his own business at the age of 17 as well as working in his field for a long time now (starting as a DJ at 13) and he is doing really well. Possibly in the future, we will see..

Degrees haven’t devalued where I work at all.

I don't agree that all employers expect degrees. Where my DS works they were happy to employ him with just A levels; none of the managers have degrees.

You dont need a degree to work in law; increasing numbers of people are qualifying via the legal exec route whilst working at the same time.

Outside law, the highest earners I know are in accountancy, risk management, IT, and construction. All earning £80k plus. None have degrees though some do have other professional qualifications.

re. school exam results - did DT newspaper quiz today in idle moment

• Frank Lampard footballer got an A* in Latin GCSE (he did go to private school though if I remember rightly).
• Duchess of Cambridge - 11 GCSEs,
• Alan Sugar - 1 "O" level
• Richard Branson - 3 "O" levels (though doesn't he have ADHD?)
• Jodie Marsh - 'sexy bodybuilder' - the weirdest of all : 11 GSCES at A and A*.

We employ apprentices at world and if they stick with their studies they will eventually qualify as solicitors. It’s not quick but if uni isn’t an attractive option for whatever reason it’s a good path.

There are so many things an apprenticeship can lead on to.

I loved uni though and wouldn’t have changed my experience

because absolutely no jobs that will earn a good wage are open to people that don't have a degree

Really? I know plenty of sales people, electricians, plumbers, builders all on a cracking salary.

If you want a job that's not a hands-on job (electrician, plumber, etc.), then yeah, you do kind of need a degree. Sure, it's just for the sake of having one, but employers won't even look at your CV without it. Trust me, I graduated two years ago.

I used to work in sales and the director there was expelled from school when he was 13. He didn't even do GCSEs. He was absolutely rolling in it.

There are plenty of ways to earn a good wage without a degree if you're willing to put the work in. Even my hairdresser who is self employed earns loads, she's just bought her own house all by herself at age 24.

Lots of legal/ financial/ insurance companies (including the one I work for) take people without degrees, whether as apprentices or employees. No degrees there and plenty of opportunity for career progression if you're good at the job.

You do know you can become a solicitor without a degree

The thing is , everyone knows someone who is incredibly successful and doesn't have a degree. However, research (and reality) shows that people with degrees earn more over their lifetime than those without. The difference is particularly marked for women. Obviously there are differences between subjects and sectors but those are the facts.

Another interesting fact, over 60% of graduate jobs advertised don't ask for a particular degree subject. They just want a degree. Demonstrating that employers value the transferable skills gained at university.

Obviously there are differences between subjects and sectors but those are the facts

Absolutely

But luckily for me ds2 wants to be an accountant

Then that pesky work experience happened

Sure, it's just for the sake of having one, but employers won't even look at your CV without it. Trust me, I graduated two years ago

Dh hires a level students and graduates on behalf of his company...2 of each

Interesting thread.

I work in IT and worked through 2 IT recessions. What I noticed is that if you are unemployed during them, then to cut the number of candidates down applying for a role they ask for a STEM degree. However it doesn't have to be an undergraduate degree.

Also that the vast majority of the top senior people I've worked along side have a degree. I know people some companies didn't employ permanently simply because while they had the experience they didn't have a degree, and funnily enough the degree could be in any subject.

I actually remember doing my Masters and being in my tutor''s office, reading an application from a guy with loads of experience. He was applying to study for a Masters degree as he hit a ceiling in his career and couldn't progress any further.

Secondly I also know some IT trainers, including one that teaches apprentices who has worked for more than one organisation. The quality of study material on IT apprenticeships really, really varies. Some are absolutely awful and teach the apprentice nothing. Even if they get closed down it can be too late for the apprentices on those courses.

I also know people working in different areas who had to do Masters degrees to get into senior management.

So while it may not be necessary for someone to go to university to get an undergraduate degree, it maybe worth in a few years into their career when they have lots of experience to do a Masters degree.

Thanks for telling us what STEM means.

Can you even get a well paid white collar job without a degree? Here in the US you wouldn't even get an interview. At my office the receptionist is even going for her masters as it's no longer enough to just have a bachelors. I think not getting a degree is putting yourself at a great disadvantage.

Where do people get this idea that STEM is a fail-proof entry ticket into a well-paid job as opposed to humanities?

Haven't they looked at the educational background of top civil servants, business men, politicians, diplomats? These are not people scrabbling around in the gutter for lost pennies. But an awful lot of them are History, Politics or English graduates. Lots of opportunities open to graduates in MFL too.

For the record, neither of my children (as far as I can tell) will be going to university, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my general attitude towards HE: it's purely about what suits them. Dd is already at drama school, ds is thinking of an apprenticeship.

Unlike racingcar's family, mine is very broad-church about these things. Very academic childhood in the sense of lots of learning and reading going on at home, but also a huge amount of respect for manual work and an insistence that everybody needs a basic training in that too. Some of us are scholars, some are manual workers, no sense that one is better than the other. One brother is a professor in ancient languages at a foreign university, one started out as a trawlerman, one nephew is about to start at one of the top conservatoires of the world, another is a carpenter- we're proud of them all. A skill is a skill.

However, research (and reality) shows that people with degrees earn more over their lifetime than those without. Median graduate salary is £10k higher than median non-graduate salary. However, that's not comparing like with like, because the non-graduate figure includes those who would never have secured a university place, and those who haven't the skills to do anything other than an unskilled job. What would be interesting to know in the context of the discussion here is the salary difference between graduates and those people who had the qualifications to go to university but chose not to.

It's different in Ireland so no. Most people working class-middle class get grants and no one in Ireland has those huge college debts you have in uk/usa it's 'free' education for most with the exception of some families earning more having to pay 3-5000 registration fees

@corythatwas The point about STEM subjects is that a higher proportion of graduates achieve a well paid job. Some politics, history, English graduates achieve well paid jobs, but it's not a guarantee - most top civil servants, diplomats, politicians will also have been to the "right" university and benefited from networks. Not to mention private school for many. For your average person with state school education and little "social capital", STEM subjects are a much safer bet.

Yes, my parents were unenthusiastic about uni

I’ve never really forgiven their lack of support (emotional not financial)

Of course you can earn lots of money by working your way up without a degree. Know many that have, however if you're looking to get into a very specific area or role, degree is the way to go. A masters at that

I would have loved it if DD1 had gone to uni but although she had great A level grades she wanted to go to work. In 3 years she has earned just over 80k and has had qualifications paid for by her company, add that to student debt and it will take a while for her graduate friends to catch up financially. I don't disagree that more career opportunities and earning potential may be there for them in the future though and she has missed out on the uni experience. Her life, her choice.

It’s interesting many of the largest accountancy firms are taking on school leavers. It needs something to break the cycle tbh rather than this blindly leaping into uni thing. It all started to go downhill when polys became unis. It blurred the lines of the vocational and academic routes more. It’s basically a supply and demand thing. More graduates mean a degree in worth less than the same would have been worth 10,20,30years ago when fewer people would have had a degree. It all depends on the degree and uni tbh. Some are useful and some a waste of time. I’d strongly dissuade DS from doing tiddlywinks studies at the university of some Random town with another random word thrown in to distinguish it from the old university. But might be more encouraing if he did veterinary science at edinburgh.

@mere there is a difference between graduate salary and those with two A levels ( so could feasibly get a HE place)
Over a lifetime it works out at around £160,000 for women - the figure for men is a bit lower. Obviously, this is covering all sectors including those that are graduate entry but relatively low pay. In some sectors that figure is significantly higher.

You are right - a graduate's salary is on average £10k more than a non graduate but again that covers all sectors and varies significantly between those sectors and geographical areas. A master's widens that gap further.