Gender neutral/disabled toilets

[chchchnamechanges]

I was at a venue which had a sign up for male and female loos with another sign pointing to gender neutral and disabled loos. I went to use the disabled loo and realised that there wasn’t a gender neutral toilet at all, it was a shared gender neutral/disabled toilet.

Is this normal? I’m a bit baffled by it - there’s only one toilet and quite often it’s literally the only one the disabled person can access. Or they urgently need to get to a toilet.

I’m going to write a review of the venue’s accessibility (which promises to be great on its website then isn’t) and I’m not sure if this is totally normal and I’m just being OTT expecting disabled loos to be for disabled people?

You want it to be disabled-reserved, not just disabled-accessible?

So now disabled people have to share their toilets with yummy mummies with buggies and people who are gender neutral? How silly.

Aren't most disabled toilets gender neutral? Is the issue that they're specifically advertised as such so more people might share it?

Disabled toilets are gender neutral anyway.

I agree it would be better to have disabled loos and gender neutral loos. Most venues lack the capacity though.

A lot of people would view gender dysphoria as a medical condition that would make it appropriate for access to a private toilet to be provided for sufferers.

I guess unless the place is massive then it’s not that unreasonable to only have one loo for those with health/social needs that can’t be catered for in the general bogs.

I think you're being a bit silly. The number of people who feel the need to use a gender neutral toilet is so small compared to people who might need to use the disabled toilet that it won't affect the likelihood of it being available when you need it. You needed the loo there was a disabled loo available for you to use so there wasn't a problem.

I’ve never seen that particular symbol on a disabled toilet. It’s generally a given that both males and females with disabilities will use it.

Yes, generally accessible toilets are “reserved” when there’s only one of them. You know, like a disabled bay in a car park?

Fair enough if there’s a number of them, go for it. I’m all for sharing. But it can be difficult enough when a baby change area is also a disabled toilet without adding in more reasons to use it iyswim.

If people feel there is a need for "gender neutral" toilets they should clearly be in addition to disabled facilities. Perhaps the men's toilets can be split to provide these facilities, rather than expect disabled people to potentially lose access to their hard fought for facilities.

Disabled toilets should be used by people who are disabled only.

However many people seem to think they are just “accessible”’ones that anyone can use.

I suspect this is going to be increasingly the case as it's an easy and cheap way for organisations to address being challenged by transactivists. Disabled loos have always been unisex in that they are single rooms and it's usually only social convention that stops able bodied people from using them. Signposting them as for everyone has a huge potential impact on the individuals who really need them. I think it's important to raise your concerns OP as I'm sure that the organisation hasn't thought about this issue at all.

I do get the point.

However, I think in virtually all public places you’ll get more parents with buggies using the disabled toilet than gender neutral people.

Absolutely campgain for more accessible toilets. There should be more. Especially when the single sex toilets aren’t practical for parents with small DC. And the fact that more people are being directed to them is a part of that. But I would focus on more and better provision of accessible toilets.

Disabled toilets have been gender neutral for all the time I've used them (where they're outside the single sex toilets). They often double up as the baby changing area too.

The number of gender neutral people is so low that I don't see this as anything to be concerned about.

You’re not the only one upset:

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/row-over-change-of-nui-galway-disabled-toilets-to-transgender-ones-1.3205988

FWIW, I don’t think you are being unreasonable. I don’t consider the needs of someone wishing to use a gender neutral toilet to be anywhere near the needs of disabled toilet users. Anyone with a gender recognition certificate would have already been through the necessary process to use the toilets of their new gender.

Just because disabled toilets are gender neutral doesn't mean that they should be for anyone who feels they are gender neutral.

Well it invites anyone to use them whereas before people might have thought they were reserved for people with disabilities?

Thus they might get more traffic than they did before.

Probably it depends on whether they were for disabled people only before, really.

Aren't all disabled toilets gender neutral? I've never seen a disabled toilet that is designated specifically for male or female use only.

Recent estimates are that there are 300-500,000 individuals who identify as transgender in the UK and about 14M disabled people, so in theory only a 5% increase, although not all of those who are disabled need to use disabled facilities and the definition of transgender is so broad as to be pretty meaningless (and is not restricted to those with dysphoria, indeed some would say that is a discriminatory suggestion). However the issue is that if you stop labeling the disabled toilet as being primarily for disabled people then it becomes a general facility meaning that disabled people may well not be able to access it when needed.

Sirzy - I think it depends doesn't it? Some are accessible and some are for people with disabilities only.

e.g. years ago and when I was ill I saw a trhead on here about it and everyone said if it has a wheelchair sign it's reserved for disabled people, at the hospital though I could only find ones without a disabled sign down near the entrance.

I genuinely can't understand how anyone could be worried about this without just being anti trans. You're talking about a vanishingly small proportion of people. The disabled toilets are far far far more often used by parents with small children and plenty of them also double as baby changing areas. This is what is going to stop the disabled toilets being used by disabled people. Why the sudden concern now that it's gender neutral?

Alonghardwinter sometimes you get an accessible cubicle within the main ladies or gents toilet area. ie it's bigger and has the bars and sometimes a sink in there as well which is lower and so forth.

Because if the toilet is now labelled as gender neutral plenty of people (not transgender) will feel that they can use that toilet, if they don't mind gender neutral facilities. It makes it unclear that the toilet is primarily for disabled users.

I think people are missing the point here.

A disabled toilet is for disabled people. It’s irrelevant that they are gender neutral. Atm we already have to share them with people who think accessible means accessible to all rather than accessible to those with disabilities and of course in most places they double up as the baby change area. Judging from this it looks like they’re going to have a third use and that’s be gender neutral.

God knows when those of us who can’t get in anywhere else for a wee are supposed to go!

Exactly, what assassinatedbeauty said. There were roughly 3 toilets in the venue which were disabled friendly, that’s not a lot taking into account the fact that queuing can be incredibly difficult when you have a mobility problem and going to find another one is not always an option.

I have heard some people with disabilities are fucked off as they campaigned so so long and so so hard for this for years and now they've got some finally, people are like "oh just let use the disabled ones" like they're a catch all for anyone who doesn't quite fit in the standard ones for whatever reason or simply would prefer the space and personal sink etc that you get in the disabled facilities. One example might be men who want to take a nice long shit in a space which is more private (women too but IME it's the men who are the marathon shitters in life + they often seem to be a bit funny about where they go!).

Just one example (I thought of it as a man at work uses our disabled facilities which are next to the ladies loos, for exactly this purpose).