To have immediately removed DS2 from my parents house and found an alternative place to live?

[Strawbroke]

Currently living with my parents as my house isn't ready. It has been hard going but okay up until today. Ongoing issues with my dad turning the wifi off at 8 or 9pm but we have adhered to his rules.So I don't dripfeed I'll give you the build up to us having to leave.

This morning DS2 (age 10) really kicked off as he was going to holiday club. He has huge anxiety generally but especially about transitions, so is difficult. He got dressed and undressed 3 times. Anger. Crying. In the kitchen getting breakfast he elbowed me. I immediately took his phone off him and told him he couldn't take it to holiday club. And put it away. Said he could have the phone back tonight if I got an apology. My mum witnessed this. I went to work. 3dcs went off to respective childcare. In the car DS2 was upset, said he was very sorry. We talked about anger and how unacceptable it was to elbow me and I said we would come up with a way to address him dealing with his emotions. I know my son and if you come on really strong (shouting, react in anger etc, he escalates as his anxiety means he can't regulate his emotions).

On our return after work/holiday club my dad was sat on his laptop. I got the DC's a snack,gave DS2 his phone to Snapchat his dad upstairs but ensured he wasn't going on it. My dad went upstairs and proceeded to scream in DS2's face that under his roof he doesn't hit women etc. I could hear DD (age 7) trying to frantically calm her Grandad down. I was about to go up, he came down and started shouting at me saying he wouldn't have DS2 hitting me under his roof. I calmly (but was upset by this point) tried to say I had dealt with his behaviour and it wasn't his place at which point he said I don't follow things that though as I had returned DS2 his phone. At that point I told the children to put in their shoes as I wanted to leave and calm the situation. This is when it got to crisis point. My dad started shouting that he wasn't happy that the DC's go to their dads. The DC's dad is a very violent man. One day it will bite me in the arse and he will be violent towards the DC's. At this point only DS2 was in the house, the other DC's were heading to the car. DS2 heard everything. The DCs do not know I left exH due to violence (he broke my ribs and jaw). I have protected them for 4 years fronthus as they are children and I have assessed the risk to the DC's (I'm a social worker) and he gad never harmed them at all. I want my DC's to have a relationship with their father. What he did to me was separate to that.

I am FURIOUS with my dad. DS2 is so quiet. I have found somewhere else to stay. AIBU to feel like my dad had no right whatsoever to say this in front of DS2? After all the drama I'm wobbling now I've calmed down. My parents will paint this as my fault. I'm just trying establish if they are right? Thanks. Sorry it's so long. Feel a mess!

" ... you don't feel you can choose to fight to stop contact with your ExH" that should read.

You are right to move out and your dad was wrong to handle things the way he did, however it does sound as if he's stressed at the situation and overprotective of you. I'd say space to clear your heads and deal with your issues is a great idea but don't cut him out completely. Make time (when you're ready) to sit and talk to him and try to understand where each other are coming from.

Lollipop you talk as though nurture is everything. It isn't, I promise you. A baby isn't a blank canvass, you know. It comes already imprinted with DNA, for better or worse. I split up with my dad's violent, alcoholic father when DS was 3, and brought him up as a single parent. Guess what? DS turned out to be a violent alchoholic. (They weren't violent to me, but a lot of drunken fighting and getting arrested, prison sentences etc.) With the benefit of hindsight I'd be a lot more careful in the choice of fathers for my DC

Never mind dad 'protecting' his daughter, he behaved disgracefully. What a wonderful example of self control to display to your son. He sounds like a tantrumming toddler himself. You are definitely right to remove yourselves. Good luck with the rest of it.

You absolutely did the right thing, Op, you know you did.

I hope your new home is a very happy new start for all of you. Good luck.

@shumpa

Sly you call me?

i found it odd that the op even moved in with her parents with the history and when this is raised her response is FFS

All in all, the OP wants corroboration that she did the right thing, from strangers on the net.

I dont understand why you find my posts frightening. How bizarre you are, to be frightened ?

OP's father overstepped a line. Removing herself & the DC from that household immediately was in all their best interests.

"I think you need to explain to your father how his reaction has enforced to your son that abusive behaviour is okay and potentially placed you and them in danger from their father" is the most misplaced blaming. The only person responsible for danger from their father is the DC's father. He is known to be violent. If them knowing he is violent is likely to cause more violence then he is the risk.

OP in due course you may like to think about a change of career. You mention possibly being desensitised by your childhood trauma and assault and then relationship with X. I understand the motivation to help others but is it helping you to see these behaviours repeated all around you on daily basis? Police working on child sex abuse teams usually move on after a number of years.

I don’t think nurture everything, but I do think it’s at least 50/50. And getting help when kids dna kicks in (which I know is near impossible sometimes) knocks the 50/50 up. I think op is doing what she can, what happens with dc as they get older can’t be known, just got to do best you can. Im

OP you did the right thing. The support you've had in real life has paid off. Keep using it if you need to. Lots of pp's don't understand about cycle of abuse nor statutory approaches to child contact. I'm sure you have your eye on the ball and will protect your children again if their father gets abusive with them.

It is extremely hard to prove emotional abuse by a parent. ime court proceedings lean towards contact unless physical violence or extreme emotional abuse is involved. I don't know how that can be proved when it's one parents word against the other. Unless the child reports it.

Keep going OP. And maybe post on Relationships next time you need a check on something. Generally a more thoughtful, experienced support forum

Willow2017

I agree. I hadn't read the post about the OPs childhood when I wrote that.

EXH has never, and in 4 years since, physically touched the DC's and they were given support and the space to disclose through a domestic abuse support service.

Not yet. I wouldn't trust any assessment. People who abuse women and who have aggression issues will also end up losing it one day and abusing children. It's only a matter of time.

Taking a phone off for few hours for "elbowing" your own mother at 10 is a very very light consequence...I would have the same concerns as your father...
Are you going to be fine with your son "elbowing" girlfriends in the future? Are you going to excuse it by saing he suffered trauma and struggles with his emotions?

I think you should stop protecting your Ex. I do not understand why you want your kids to have a relationship with their Dad at all. He is a bad role model and will be a toxic influence.

I understand that there will be ongoing contact with their Dad that you can’t stop. However your actions seem to be very much ‘your Dad is OK’ even to the point of moving your kids out and being furious that your Dad was honest.

Breaking your jaw is so serious. Your son, who has just hurt you, has seen you defend his Dad who did the similar to you, on the same day. This is the wrong message for him.

Why did he get given his phone back to snapchat his Dad? Makes no sense at all. He could snapchat anyone.

Your Dad did not react well but his heart was in the right place. He saw your son do something very serious to you, and was saying it was wrong. I believe that it is SO important that your son realises how bad this was that even your Dad losing it is better than him being able to get away with it. You talk about your son having anxiety issues etc as an excuse for his elbowing and why you did not get cross.

sorry I think ybu,

I don't understand why your letting your children see their dad, he may not be violent in front of them but he's attitude and every day behaviour won't be teaching them anything positive.... because you know... he's a woman beater.

your dad over reacted but he's worried for you and your children.

in his eyes you didn't deal with it. you have the phone back, yes to only send snap chats to his dick of a dad but you sent him upstairs where he could use the phone as he wished. your dad shouldn't have shouted in hes face but I don't think this is something to majorly fall out over.

Ok so the children seeing their dad doesn't sit right with me, neither does your son's violence. I can see why your dad is so frustrated. You removed your son's phone due to his violence towards you then gave it back so he could make contact with his violent father. Surely you can see why your dad is furious??? Of course the way he expressed it was totally unacceptable but you must be able to see where he is coming from.

However he is your son and this is your life and you have every right to decide for yourself who you want in it.

Your son sounds like he desperately needs professional help. I would organise counselling asap. I suspect you would benefit from some too

The kids should only meet Their dad in a contact centre, he only has to kill them once, mental ill health is the biggest killer of men under 45 and every year there are cases of men killing their kids when previously only hurting the mums.
Your dad should not have interfered and you did the best in a bad situation
I wish you well, personally I'd move a long way from all these men

I hope you are ok.

Our situation has had some similarities to yours.

Just to say, "ASD plus Trauma" can display as ADHD symptoms. My DS was wrongly put on ADHD medication for three years, because of this misdiagnosis in our case.

I read this as your Dad being afraid and handling the situation very badly. He witnessed what you went through and because of this I would probably forgive him but new ground rules need to be set.

No child of mine would be seeing their father if he broke my jaw and ribs and I would fight that in court.

Also OP, I had a childhood very like yours (only my mother was the abusive one) and it is difficult to deal with. It would make me even more adamant that my child did not see their abusive father I am afraid but it seems to be a decision that you are not questioning. Yet.

Taking a phone off for few hours for "elbowing" your own mother at 10 is a very very light consequence...I would have the same concerns as your father...
Are you going to be fine with your son "elbowing" girlfriends in the future? Are you going to excuse it by saing he suffered trauma and struggles with his emotions?

I agree with this, you are excusing, minimising and pussyfooting around some absolutely appalling behaviour, which you should be taking far more seriously.

So your son doesn't like being shouted at? He shouldn't like the consequences of perpertrating physical violence!

I could hear DD (age 7) trying to frantically calm her Grandad down.

This is very very concerning. Where on earth has your 7 year old daughter learnt that her brother cannot be reprimanded for violence?

I would have some very serious concerns over her reaction, she should have been supporting her grandfather. She should have wanted and expected to see a reaction from the adults around to how her brother had treated you. This should be automatic and go without saying

The fact that a 7 year old child felt it her responsibility to try and calm him down is odd. It sounds like you are trying to professionally manage your children's trauma yourself when they need an objective professional outsider.

The police, social services and any health agencies have all agreed the father poses no threat to the children and therefore have effectively advised the OP they would not support no contact at court. Yes she could hope to find a judge that sympathised and agreed with her but without the support of police and SS that would be unlikely. I am astonished at how many people do not understand how MARAC and the family courts work and are still vilifying the OP for something she really has no control over. Their are people who have suffered horrendous sexual, physical, financial and emotional abuse who are forced to co-parent with their abuser and I say that as someone who works in the system and has been through it.

claire I did discipline him and he had a consequence

Op, Im sorry, really sorry, but you didn't give your son a consequence because it all came to nothing the instant you gave him the phone to snapchat his dad. Not that I don't understand why you would give in, you must be exhausted after all thats gone on in the past and more recently. It can be very difficult to be consistent when you're on on your knees and your backs against the wall. But has he learned what you wanted him to learn from this? No.

I also have to say though that I think your son manipulated the situation by bringing his father into it and saying he wanted to snap chat him. He more than likely knows he's your achilles tendon and used it to his advantage.

Just to say, "ASD plus Trauma" can display as ADHD symptoms.

thats very interesting, thank you.

claire I did discipline him and he had a consequence.

no, sorry, there is nothing in your description of what you did that even comes close to appropriate discipline or consequences.

Quite the reverse, you had a nice little chat and told him YOU would take responsibility for finding a way for HIM to control his violent tendencies...

this is the exact opposite of discipline and consequences.

You are encouraging violent behaviour from your son, AND you are encouraging your 7 year old daughter to accept this as inevitable, and something she has to walk on egg shells aroud.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you need to change your tune pretty radically and parent 100x more effectively if you son and daughter are going to stand a chance in life.