To think the best advice I can give my daughter is don’t have any children?

[WaitingForSunday17]

Because it is completely soul destroying and the negatives massively outweigh any positives?
I have a son too. I don’t think it’s so bad for men. I wouldn’t be so sad for him if he ended up having children. But I think for women it ruins your life and the happiest people I know - and I think some study confirmed this - are those that are child free by choice? Completely different if you want them and can’t have them I realise.

It's a very difficult situation to be in, Waiting

I think the problem is that there is little honesty about the relentless work that children bring. And even less said about why we need to learn to find meaning and purpose in that.

I agree with this up to a point, but many, many things require relentless work and self sacrifice. "Never go to university" or "never become a doctor" wouldn't be appropriate to suggest, and nor is "never have children." All have massive downsides and a negative impact on some aspects of quality of life - be that financial, mental health, "me time"... but there are also huge rewards and benefits to all of these things, be that a sense of purpose and happiness or social currency and a good wage.

"Don't go to university until you're certain what you want to pursue", "don't become a doctor unless you're passionate about medicine" and "don't have a child / children unless you're sure you want them" are all far more useful conversations to have.

It can be a loaded conversation to have with those close to you though - anything said can be taken as an attack on someone's choices or in extreme cases like OP discussing this with her daughter, a feeling of guilt or anger. I do think these kind of moral- or value-based conversations are best had in a generalised way, perhaps drawing on storylines on TV or events in the immediate family, over weeks or years to give children the confidence to make their own decisions and the knowledge to think critically about big choices in the context of their own goals and what they might want to achieve in life.

@WaitingforSunday17

I think plenty of women feel exactly the way you do and it only comes out in this kind of situation (anonymous message boards, anonymous journalistic sources, unguarded drunken moment) .

this is because as other people previoulsy have said, the effect of saying this to your daughter (or anyone really) carries with it the implied meaning that you wished you hadn't had your daughter and even if its not as extreme as "she ruined your life" is has negative implications. The same is true of running round telling others the same thing - it risks getting back to her.

There is also a huge societal taboo against saying this - a cultural pressure because it is societally important that people keep having children - particularly for powerful men historically- to have heirs to the title and to physically defend the family wealth and property. There is a culture of an "important" female trait to be mothering.

Lots of women strongly regret having children from what I've seen but no one will talk about it openly. I think the solution is not to say directly to your daughter don't have children in a blut way but slowly and over time introduce the idea that there are other options(not having children of your own but having children in your life - nephews, neices, god children, friends children) and these other options have huge advantages. A drip drip drip effect.

• in a blunt way

I'm sorry you feel so negative absolutely having children. I hope you can find ways forward where you feel happier.

For me, having a child has been fabulous. I've enjoyed every stage of it. Dd is now a teen and I'm still enjoying it. For me, the advantages far outweigh any perceived disadvantages. I'd whole heartedly recommend it to my Dd, but would advise she made sure she'd sorted her education and started her career first, and that she made the choice together with a settled partner once they had a settled home sorted.

Great post sweetheart neckline

Any big life choices and responsibilies come with downsides as well as upsides and having children is the ultimate life long responsibility.

It’s sad that a lot of couples seem to have kids just because it’s ‘what people do’ or they’ve been together a while and it seems like the ‘next thing.’

The one, general message that we raised our children (ds and dd) with was: aim for a work life that will be interesting and fulfilling. We never steered them towards a particular career, or steered them towards university (though they actually all chose to go.) The only thing that mattered is that they saw for themselves a future where they wouldn’t just see work as a financial means to an end, but as something as fulfilling as possible too. That way, any other decisions, whether to marry/live with a partner/ have kids/not have kids would be made from a starting point of having their ‘own’ life. The risk otherwise is that having kids becomes a ‘default.’ You can end up having kids not as an actively positive decision, but because it’s a way out of a life that’s not satisfying in its own right.

None of us are perfect parents but I do feel that’s one thing dh and I got right. We treated our dds exactly the same as our ds in this regard: never trying to steer them in any particular direction, but guiding them towards making a fulfilling life on their own terms. That way, relationships and children are the icing on the cake (if they choose them) Not a default.

The feminist in me can't help pointing out that it is feminism that fights to change the situation where women are trapped and beaten down by motherhood due to useless partners. It is also feminism that freed women in the first place from the requirement to be mothers, by giving them other options in the form of education and careers and independence. In that situation I can't help but be frustrated by the fact that it takes some women so long to realise how much the deck is still stacked against them - even though other women keep trying to tell them over and over. I do think it is totally worth telling our daughters the reality of the world they're growing up in, so that they can go into motherhood (if they choose) with their eyes open to the fact that equality is still a long way off.

Well said, Spaghetti.

I'm at a SAHM and was recently criticised for telling my own daughter not to have kids. That's because we are on the bones of our arse most of the time and I don't want to glorify children as the only option for her. She keeps saying "I just want to be a Mam" because that's all I do (childcare costs would cripple us). I had her at 18 so I don't want her to have a baby before she's lived her life.
I understand what your saying OP but I wouldn't have been so doomsday about it.

recently criticised for telling my own daughter not to have kids. That's because we are on the bones of our arse most of the time and I don't want to glorify children as the only option for her

Telling her they shouldn't be an option is as bad as telling her she has to have them. Here's a thought, stop projecting your own issues and insecurities onto your children and teach them to make their own sensible decisions?

AliceGoot I completely agree

I wouldn’t be without my kids now and they’re great people - the eldest is 12 and he’s becoming more independent and I can have proper interesting discussions with him (he’s extremely intelligent) but the youngest has autism and it’s tough

Mine have been away for a few days as I’ve been working and I didn’t miss them in the slightest. Never do when Im not with them tbh.

This thread seems to suffer from a good deal of what we are telling the OP she must on no account do to her daughter

Tell her she ruined her mothers life and she is soul destroying! Yes, of course we are saying she must on no account do that, you should be too!
: the desire to tell other people, who are not us, where they must find their meaning. It seems a really odd way to set about things

Here's where you went wrong, those are 2 very different things. Nobody is telling OP where to "find her meaning" and thats a pretty daft thing to focus on here. She already HAS children. She can't go back and make an alternative choice to find meaning. She has a responsibility to the children she has, and the first one is not to tell them that their mother would prefer they did not exist.

There is a discussion to be hand about women and motherhood and choices (and don't kid yourself you're breaking barriers and taboos, we've been having that conversation forever) but don't confuse it with dismassal of responsibilities to extant children. You had them, you have to deal. Teach them they have options, thats bloody obvious. Don't tell them they ruined your life. Also bloody obvious.

I would not say “don’t do it” but I’d say choose your partner carefully. Talk about childcare and housework and emotional labour before having children. Do not “look after” your husband before having children. Have a career or a passion before having a family and work hard to keep in touch with that during the baby years.
And finally consider seriously having just one child. For us it’s been a game changer in terms of the time and energy we have for ourselves and each other and therefore our dc.

There was a similar post a few weeks ago it is basically telling girls they have ruined their mothers life wtf is that about

That was also a mum that was clearly struggling with PND, overwhelmed and in need of support. Luckily a few people recognised that and offered support.

The rest just piled in and abused her

Is freedom just about being able to go out to work unencumbered though? For many, work is just another representation of loss of freedom, enslavement to the rat race, even the most prestigious positions can become mundane after a while. My dsis is childless by choice, for now, she has a fantastic sounding job but I think the novelty has long worn off and she hates the administrative side of it, being on the phone to complaining clients constantly. She derives joy from being able to travel freely, pursue hobbies with dbil, see friends. All those things are easier, though not impossible, without children.

I enjoy having children in my life, for the most part. Mine are a bit older now and we only have two so travel is much easier and 'exotic' more adult destinations easier also. I enjoy watching them do their sports. I like having an excuse to go to parks, museums, seeing kids films, getting ice cream. I think its key, though difficult at times, to retain a sense of self identity. Not always through career, but perhaps outside relationships, study, hobbies, fashion (!), so you don't feel you are only defined by motherhood.

YeTalkShiteHen

I in no way meant to suggest that the OP wasn't a successful mother. Far from it. I have no idea of the bond and relationship she has with her children. I was only trying to highlight how skewed society's version of what motherhood should look like. That it should be mainly joyful, happy and fulfilling. Countless women, like the OP, find this is not the default. But...i believe there is still value to be gained regardless of whether a mother is naturally enjoying her role or not. Embracing this mindset can be liberating. But it's not easy to do this. This much I know.

I agree with what others said upthread about having children at a younger age, if you're going to have them at all. I had my first at 27, which IMO isn't particularly young, but I was much younger than many of the other mums and the difference has been noticeable - I had more energy, both when they were born and now that they're older, I was a bit more gung-ho about things changing, mainly because I didn't have a set career or way of doing things, and I was able to change career after my first mat leave as my original career wasn't very far along and I wasn't too old to start again. I will be younger when my children are adults and a younger grandparent, should that ever happen. It has a string of positive effects.

IdentifyasTired

I do agree, I just think the way it was phrased the first time wasn’t particularly helpful.

Stop projecting your own issues and insecurities onto your children and teach them to make their own sensible decisions?
Having a baby without any money is NOT a sensible idea though is it? My DD thinks having a baby instead of a career seems like a brilliant idea - it's fucking not. I've lived through it so of course I'm going to try and change her mind. I was very lucky to have a boyfriend(now DH) who didn't run for the hills and had a supportive family.

Don't. My dad said this to me once and (along with many other things he has said) I do resent him for it.
Besides, your daughter is not you! Just because you think this doesn't mean that she will! Everyone handles motherhood differently and some people are actually glad they had children!!

Having a baby without any money is NOT a sensible idea though is it? My DD thinks having a baby instead of a career seems like a brilliant idea - it's fucking not

Well of course its not, and you can tell her that. But I imagine you can tell the difference between telling her that and telling her "NEVER have any children, its awful and they ruin your life"?

You are projecting your own feelings onto your daughter. Tell her she's free to do as she chooses in life and leave it at that.

Of course I can. Hence why I said I can understand how the OP feels. (To a certain extent) and used my situation as an example of my feelings.

Maybe encourage her to find a career she enjoys, hobbies, friends, travelling. And then she can make her own mind up about having children when she's ready.

Here's where you went wrong, those are 2 very different things. Nobody is telling OP where to "find her meaning" and thats a pretty daft thing to focus on here

Actually, if you read the thread through thoroughly I think you will find there are several posts that do just that, suggest that you have to find meaning in motherhood, that it is the most important thing any one person will ever do.

phrases such as "we need to learn to find meaning and purpose in that", "choosing to apply a deeper meaning to motherhood and reminding ourselves daily of why we do this", "to prepare [our daughters] as best as possible for the biggest undertaking a person faces"

The OP needs to be kind and tactful to her daughter, which almost certainly means choosing not to have this conversation. Children need to believe that they are important enough and wonderful enough to make up for anything.

But she does not need to find a deeper meaning, nor does she need to find this the most important thing she will ever do. Those bits are up to her. It's not a failure if she doesn't.