To think the best advice I can give my daughter is don’t have any children?

[WaitingForSunday17]

Because it is completely soul destroying and the negatives massively outweigh any positives?
I have a son too. I don’t think it’s so bad for men. I wouldn’t be so sad for him if he ended up having children. But I think for women it ruins your life and the happiest people I know - and I think some study confirmed this - are those that are child free by choice? Completely different if you want them and can’t have them I realise.

My son has SN and my daughter has a long term health condition

Well said Blingygolightly

We have an OP who is struggling, and literally been eviscerated on this thread by people who haven’t a fucking clue what she’s going through but are projecting their own shit on to her.

for all the posters who’ve just piled in to make OP feel even shittier. Do you feel better about yourselves now? Because you shouldn’t.

IME 99% of the time your partner is the deciding factor when it comes to loving or hating parenthood. For some women being a parent is a bad choice no matter what - they're not suited to it and they never will be. But for the vast majority of other women the thing tainting the experience is the feeling of being alone, burdened entirely by the relentless responsibility. In that situation it's easy to become so worn out that enjoying anything about the situation is impossible.

My DH was shit when my DD (second child) was born - he totally checked out. She never slept and cried all the time. I felt like I was going mad, I was so tired and strung out. At times I felt I genuinely hated my children - I'd sit down for the first time
in 12 hours and on of them would cry and I'd feel rage and despair and utter hopelessness. I was exhausted - it just wasn't possible for me to enjoy a cuddle or a smile when I hadn't slept in 6 months and when I knew I might not sleep again for a year or more. A human just can't tolerate that.
I threatened divorce and DH got his shit together and started parenting equally. I now really enjoy being a parent, although I'm still scarred from DD's first 18 months. It was so awful.

Some women aren't capable of being good parents. But many more just need support and a fucking break because they're not auto automatons. That applies just as much to the SAHMs with high flying busy husbands who are always working/cycling/being the Big I Am as it does to single mums. You just can't do it single handedly, no matter what the reason is for the 'father' being useless (and btw earning money is NOT a valid excuse)

My son has SN and my daughter has a long term health condition. Certainly these things make life much harder.

Yes they do. How much is your partner doing? How much external help (family? Any carers?) are you getting?

If the answer is none then it’s no wonder you’re exhausted. Kids are tiring enough but add SN/health issues to the mix and no help and that’s really difficult.

to you op xx

Everything Spaghettijumper said.

I think it's very easy for women with supportive husbands, no money worries, healthy children and lots of family support to say they have no regrets in having children and enjoy parenthood. Take away the supportive husband, family support, comfortable financial situation and throw in some special needs then come back and tell us all how happy you are? Doesn't mean you'd love your dc any less but you'd certainly love your own life a bit less.

Fwiw, I'm not specifically referring to my own life here but it's not beyond the realms of imagination to consider other women's situation.

Some of these posts are quite astonishing. I think the problem is that there is little honesty about the relentless work that children bring. And even less said about why we need to learn to find meaning and purpose in that. I don't mean by being a martyr and submissively accepting a life of misery but by choosing to apply a deeper meaning to motherhood and reminding ourselves daily of why we do this. It's up to each mother to define her own meaning. But it's crucial to have one. There is value in sacrifice and hard graft. It's verboten to talk about personal sacrifice in positive terms today. So much is focus is on finding ways to make everything as enjoyable and easy as it can be. In many ways this is good and necessary. But applied to motherhood it doesn't work. Because almost all women find it hard hard work. Whether they stay at home, work part time, employ support staff and work full time, it is hard.

That's the conversation we need to have with our daughters. Not to tell them whether to have children or not but to prepare them as best as possible for the biggest undertaking a person faces.

There are certain circumstances that I would tell my daughters to pursue before having children for their own protection. Being married, (to someone who shares their values and goals. Not as simple as 'marry a feminist man'. Raise a family with a person who aligns with your worldview whatever that may be) owning property, being educated to the degree you wish to be.

However there are many families who raise happy children who don't tick these boxes. I know of teenage single mothers who now live successful, fulfilled lives and enjoy deep and fierce bonds with their children. The one thing all successful mothers share is a belief in the meaning and purpose that having children offers.

Find this and life becomes immeasurably better. The catch is, it's far easier said rhan done.

The one thing all successful mothers share is a belief in the meaning and purpose that having children offers

You didn’t RTFT did you?

There’s a lot to be said for having children very young when you have energy, lower material expectations and little to lose career-wise. Then at 35ish, when they are pretty well independent, building a career. Not sure how easy that I these days but it worked well for me many years ago.

Gosh Spaghettijumper that is a good post !

They say that women lead the way in initiating divorce and I bet so many reasons are those you’ve listed.

I’ve been a single mum for ages and although it’s so hard because I have no partner to help me I remind myself of the time I did have a partner who just added to the amount of housework and mental load. It was much worse.

My mum warned me that children were hard work and changed your life. She had 3 of us! I was young and thought I knew it all and still had two of my own : had to find out for myself I guess. I love my two but my mum was right / patenting these days is harder too I think as well : pressures are different. You could tell them your thoughts but don’t be shocked if they do the opposite.
I admire people that choose not to have them though!

Urbanbeetler I agree. Why are we encouraged to have kids late, after having built up a career etc? One that you then go on to lose?

Was it feminism telling us to go out into the workplace? Was it the religious patriarchy stigmatising young unmarried mothers? The way in which teenage pregnancies are used as a negative indicator of societal progress?

Or the financial cost attached to having kids meaning we all have to find the money and economic support of a partner first.

Either way, having kids young (not unhealthily young) is in many ways a good thing. If you have the support, which many don’t.

I always leave these threads feeling that society needs a massive rehaul!

It's interesting isn't it. When we were growing up, we were constantly told that the absolute, worst thing that could ever happen would be to be a teenage mother...schools really drummed this message home, well, mine did! I'm 36 now, if I'd had a baby at 16, they'd be 20 now...I'm still young enough to travel, work, study, have a long career...yet, it was sold to us as the single biggest disaster there ever could be!

OP I have DC and disagree with your perspective. But I also think what an awful lot of trauma you've been through to reach this point in your thinking. No advice, but and a handhold because it doesn't matter if I agree or if my experience of parenting matches yours, it matters that you feel this way and are being made out to be a monster because of it.

You're perfectly entitled to your feelings, and they're as valid as mine or the next persons. I would suggest, though, that with support and help you could learn to adjust those feelings and reassess them. A family member of mine had extensive therapy for a similar reason and it helped enormously over a long period.

Yes I did read the thread.

That was to YeTalkShiteHen

*A bar
A nightclub
A gym
Some pubs
Gigs/concerts
A spa”

You can do all of those every once in awhile if your partner/husband looks after them for the day/evening/weekend.*

50% of children don’t live with both biological parents by the time they are 16.

So it’s avery common experience of motherhood not to have a dp to give you a break. That’s not even counting the typical pattern of so man fathers who live in the family home but do next to no parenting.

Op- could you be eligible for social services respite due to disabilities? Have you ever had a carers assessment?

As for taking dcs to places- all dcs are different. One of mine is a nightmare to take anywhere and ruins every trip. Another is amenable and generally pleasant to spend time with.

Don’t compare parenting easy dcs and difficult ones!!

IdentifyasTired fair enough. Your response doesn’t read like you did.

OP is a successful mother, she’s just struggling at the moment.

I just feel so sad reading your post OP and I hope you get the support you need, especially from your OH.

As to your question, I think this thread shows there are massively different experiences of motherhood out there. My own father warned me repeatedly never to have kids, that it would ruin my life (thanks for the psychological baggage there dad!). I did focus on my career, relationship, travel and fun all through my 20s and into my 30s. I'm glad I did - I had a blast while I was young and everyone I partied with was young too. For a long time I thought I didn't want any children and only gradually changed my mind. I discussed with DH exactly how it would have to work if we did have a baby - 50/50 split outside of his working hours, me returning to work after a year. We already shared all the house stuff like cooking and washing so he had good form. I still went into pregnancy full of doubt but committed to the path my husband and I had chosen together.

I'm one of the lucky ones and I love my DS to pieces. He's one and full of grins, mischief and hugs all day long. It has been hard at times but my DH is brilliant, we have no money worries due to both having good careers (mine on temporary hold), and I don't feel I'm missing out as much because I already did so much. In fact, I am appreciating the small things. The morning cuddles with his head pressed into my chest. The pride on his wee face when he names something correctly or brings back something I've asked him to get. The daft stuff he gets up to. Being a kid myself, rolling on the floor and making animal noises. I wouldn't swap him for all the exotic holidays and Michelin star dinners in the world BUT I'm glad I had the chance to do those things. I never would have thought I'd enjoy being a mother but I love it and I love discovering this other side to myself at the grand old age of 39. That said, I am more than ready to go back to work and DS will be starting nursery soon so I can look for a job. I have had tough days where I feel my independence and self-respect have taken a bashing by being off work with him. It is very hard not to have a balance of time with and away from your kids.

I think you can only tell your DD to think hard about her choices, to make sure she lives for herself before she chooses to give life to another, and as others have said, to be demanding of her partner. You can't know (as my father didn't either) whether in her life and her particular circumstances, kids would be a blessing or a curse.

I wouldn't tell her not to have children but talk to her about choices and to make sure she discusses with a future partner whether to have children or not.

Me and DH had lengthy discussions about children and decided not to have any. I assumed all couples had discussions but it seems not. When I talk to almost all my friends with children there were no discussions, it was just "the done thing" to get married and have children. Maybe that is why so many of them say if they could go back in time they wouldn't have any children. Most of them also blame having children on their marriages breaking down.

Three friends got divorced because they found out once married that they disagreed about having children. Two females didn't want children but their OH's did and one did want children but her OH didn't.

I thought maybe younger people do discuss this more but it seems not when I look at the young couples I know. Out of 6 couples all in their 20's or early 30's only 2 of the couples say they have discussed children and, surprise, they are the couples that don't want any. Two of the couples are expecting their third child (none of the children planned) and the other 2 couples are expecting their first (apparently both "happy" accidents).

I have friends with children who seem to be happily married but more of my friends with children are divorced than not. Also quite a few on second, third even fourth marriages. I can honestly say that all my friends with no children that are married all seem very happy and all have only been married the once and all for at least 28 years

There’s a lot to be said for having children very young when you have energy, lower material expectations and little to lose career-wise. Then at 35ish, when they are pretty well independent, building a career. Not sure how easy that I these days but it worked well for me many years ago

Yes this is what Sylvia Ann Hewlett says in her books- the most career successful women either don’t have dcs or have their first

@tomhazard,

Sorry I wasn’t clear (it was stupidly early and I wasn’t feeling well)

I meant that the scenarios described in the anecdotes sounded boring and annoying. I’m not annoyed that someone is enjoying their children, I know that I wouldn’t.

And yy to @mydogisthebest, childed friends of mine seem to have a higher split percentage. Has an actual study been done I wonder?

Today 09:02 Spaghettijumper

IME 99% of the time your partner is the deciding factor when it comes to loving or hating parenthood.

This. A million times over

The OP said in her first post that she doesn’t believe parenting is a bad experience for men, just for women. It seems that she’s in a relationship where they’ve got very demarcated Male/female roles and that the OP isn’t happy with that.

I think parenting is a tough enough gig anyway (though it shouldn’t feel like the utterly depressing experience it seems for the OP.)

We have 3 children, one of whom had, and continues to have, quite significant medical issues. The main factor imo that has contributed to parenthood being an enjoyable (mostly!) Experience for us is that we tried from the outset to share responsibilities and tasks as much as possible so that neither of us became pigeonholed into stereotyped roles. I’m not saying that’s always easy (eg I returned to work when ds was 12 weeks old) It’s also hard to find the motivation to keep up with hobbies and friends when you have a baby, are knackered and just in from a day’s work... but i honestly believe these are the things that keep you sane and balanced and not consumed by parenthood to the extent that you lose yourself.

Please don’t ever let your dd know you feel this way OP. Not even in a well-meant steering her away from thinking about children in the future. If you are giving out signals to your dd that being a mum is shit, and to your ds you’re giving out the signal that being a dad is fine, you’re simply perpetuating that stereotype. Why not raise them both to believe that life is an exciting adventure, which may or may not include children, but either way can be a rich experience, and it doesnt mean that if they have their own kids one day they have to fall into a stereotyped role

This thread seems to suffer from a good deal of what we are telling the OP she must on no account do to her daughter: the desire to tell other people, who are not us, where they must find their meaning. It seems a really odd way to set about things. Just because a large part of your life has been made meaningful by children doesn't mean a totally different human being can't find her meaning elsewhere. It doesn't make her life any less valid or less meaningful: all it means is she isn't you.

(Otoh the fact that you or I find something difficult or soul-destroying doesn't mean everybody else has to experience the same: otherwise I'd be trying to stop my nephew from taking up his scholarship to the conservatoire, because I hated my cello lessons and feel they were a waste of time. Even if he were my son, I wouldn't have the right to do that.)

The OP is entitled to her feelings. She has, by the sounds of it, a particularly hard situation to deal with. And I imagine (though I may well be projecting here) that the possibility of genetics also comes into this: in what terms should you warn a child if there is a strong possibility that there is a more than average chance that parenting will prove difficult?

(This, incidentally, is the situation I am in, and it does make life trickier, because nobody knows whose child will suffer/need extra care in the next generation and whose child will not. It's not about Michelin dinners but about something far more difficult to negotiate.)

cory yes my children are more likely to pass on the condition my daughter has.
This does come into it too I must admit.