to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

I agree with you in some respects. I didn't learn to drive until I was 26, then only drive a handful of times until I moved away from the city and to a small town 40 miles away. Tgen I got the P&R to work. A new job in a town without a P&R meant I had to join the traffic jam club. I finally have a job in my home town and walk to work.

I drive as little as possible. But to get the weekly shop, take the cat to the vet, visit friends who live more than walking distance away - I drive.

I find it astonishing that people drive when they could walk. For example, my neighbours parents - who are active and able-bodied, drive to my neighbours house when they visit. They live a 10 minute walk away!

My Dad, who is in his 70s and has a significant of titanium scaffolding around his spine and hips and is eligible for a blue badge (he doesn't have one though) walked probably a good 6 miles yesterday - much of it pushing a pram. He could've driven but, to him, it would've been far less convenient with traffic and parking etc. And he likes a walk.

Walking - if you are able - is free exercise that needs no fancy equipment or clothes.

I just want to say though that there are loads of situations where people do have to drive. Public transport just isn't up to it. But if/when you can walk, walk.

It has nothing to do specifically with being unemployed or living in a council house

You said jobless chavs. That's specifically the unemployed and those who live in council houses. You've literally typed it yourself.

I’m talking about long term unemployed chavs

See, you just typed it again. Also, it's pretty hard to be on "long-term" jobseekers as it's time limited.

who can’t be bothered to work

How do you know that?

and who sit on the bus in their tracksuits

Can people not wear what they want to now? Jesus Christ, Llama, you're not a very nice person are you?

I visit my mother in a care home pretty much every week. I work full time so only have weekends to get home stuff done.

The weekly visit to my mother take about 1.5 hrs to drive there, 1.5 hrs back. I usually stay for 3-4 hours, sometimes longer. So that is already 7 hours of my Saturday during which I can't do any of the normal stuff people get done on their non-work days.

If I take public transport (which I have done on several occasions when DH needs our car for something else) the journey takes 3 hrs each way, so that makes it 10 hours, which wipes out the entire day.

Also I can't easily take my mother out for a trip which I often do on my visits and hich she really enjoys. So no I won't be giving up my almost weekly 'single drive' visits any time soon unless it is made unviable by government policy/taxes or the law.

So I should take over an hour to get to work rather than 20 minutes door to door in my nice comfortable car that I don't have to share with anyone else? I don't think so.

many people do take the longer option..

you are contributing to killing people for your own personal comfort and convenience - are you seriously ok with that?

why would you need to hire a car? We go camping every year by public transport, and I am a single mum with two children, and we have done since the youngest was out of a push chair.

. You carry a tent and everything you need to go camping on a bus?

I generally walk everywhere but I sure as hell would take a car if I ever went camping, which is highly unlikely anyway as it's not my idea of fun.

The moment you are outside a major city, or going to somewhere outside a major city, public transport falls down completely in the UK. It doesn't have to be like that - I'm from Holland and when I lived there, I didn't own a car. I didn't need one, simple as that.

I live in a smallish market town. Buses are infrequent and for the most part do not go where I need them to. They stop at 5, and at 4 on weekends. That means if I were reliant on public transport, I could not take my kids to the cinema and a meal out on a weekend evening. So yes, I use the car.

My commute by car is 30 minutes. By public transport it would be 2 hours - that's one way only. So again, car needed.

I would love for the UK to be like Holland. I also think people should walk more - if I'm going to the library or to get a small amount of shopping, I walk. If you're fit and well, that has to be a first option.

But on the whole OP, your tone is judgmental and you seem to lack a real understanding of just how bad public transport in most of the UK really is.

I agree with you. I do have a car, but for every day commuting DH and I both get the bus. There’s no need for cars in cities.

Great. I live near(ish) the English town that is furthest from a railway station (over 30 miles) and our village has 4 buses a week (to different places, returning 2 hours later) - and that service is under threat of closure. A car is a necessity here.

So if I drive into my nearest city (over an hour's drive away) I am doing it because without a car I'd never get home again. You try it!

clairetree1 Again, how do you expect people to get home at unsociable hours or is that ok with you?

when perfectly adequate public transport exist

Oh please, the vast majority of the country doesnt have this. Maybe London. But thats it. I can be at my work in 30 minutes in my car. It would take 3 hours each way by public transport. Its a no brainer.

I think public transport is inadequate in much of the UK, even if it looks fine initially. DP takes the bus as he doesn’t particularly like driving, except on Sundays when the first bus wouldn’t get him to work until 11.30am even though he needs to be there at nine, we aren’t rural- he travelling between a decent size village and a large shopping outlet. Likewise when he works after 6pm he has 40 minute to wait between buses, at an unstaffed town centre station where there are frequent issues - drunks, fights, people on spice is a recent addition, teeangers hanging around abusing people. Last time I took a bus when my car was in for a service I found myself at a bus station at 7am on my own with three men drinking vodka and swearing at each other. There’s no way on earth I’m doing that with DS regardless of the environmental cost.
Until public transport is clean, safe and doesn’t assume everyone works Monday to Friday office hours then I’ll be keeping my car.

I never get the bus. the buses only run about once an hour up my way, they are always late as well. just been to the supermarket. went in the car, to do that on the bus would include a mile walk from the bus stop both ways. buses don't go the route you want.
never taken dd in her wheelchair on a bus either. the idea of a buggy not folding puts me off.

I live in a city and work in another city. My driving commute is just under an hour door to door. Petrol plus my work parking permit is about £2,500 a year. That does not include the ongoing costs of servicing, MOT etc (as I'd pay for those anyway). The train to work would take about 90 minutes with one connection, it's a 15 minute walk from my home to the train station and currently 10 minutes from the train station to my office but we're relocating next year so it would be closer to half an hour (maybe an extra 5 minutes driving). That train ticket would cost me £4,000, so £1,500 per year more. I would love to be able to use public transport over my car but not at the cost of £1,500 a year plus the added time costs and the inconvenience. No, I couldn't find a job closer to home. I am going to a conference with work later on this year and train travel is already looking at about £150 per person and five hours, it's going to be cheaper and quicker to fly. Now that is an environmental concern. I do my bit for the planet as much as I can (I cut down on plastic, I litter pick, I'm vegetarian, I don't use my car much outside of commuting) but there has to be balance.

OP, you have kids. How can you justify the damage their existence will have on the world? They will need food to be farmed for them, minerals to be mined for their electronic devices, trees cut down for the paper and cardboard they will consume. It's unforgivable (according to you, of course).

YANBU - plenty of people drive trips they could easily walk or take public transport for, out of habit. I realise that isn't the case for everyone, and I'm not saying that no-one should ever drive, but if just some of those trips were done by public transport/on foot/by bike that would actually make life easier for everyone.

I live next to a school with a catchment area of about 1/4 mile. People literally choose to drive a trip that would be 10 minutes walk. Wouldn't it be better for everyone if they didn't?

I agree and I haven't ever driven a car because I lived in London for years and couldn't afford it anyway.

Now I could if I wanted to but won't.

The air's fucked as it is.

I use public transport. I don't ask for lifts.

So what about shift workers?

You said jobless chavs. That's specifically the unemployed and those who live in council houses. You've literally typed it yourself.
The operative word being chavs. Not everyone who lives in a council house is a chav. Don’t make assumptions.

you are contributing to killing people for your own personal comfort and convenience - are you seriously ok with that?
Yep. As I said before, I’ve never seen any news reports that thousands of people in the UK are dying due to pollution. And me stopping driving won’t solve the problem either.

ClaireTree many of us find commutes and school runs stressful and exhausting and will do whatever we can to minimise the impact they have on our lives. Don't blame individuals blame crap public transport.

People claiming the UK has an adequate public transport system clearly live in London and rarely have to travel anywhere off the tube system.

If I lived in London I wouldn't have a car but if I tried to get to work on public transport (which also involves dropping DS at nursery) it would take me nearly 3 hours and cost me a lot more than commuting by car currently does.

There are options which would be shorter/cheaper but I'd need to set of before nursery opens and would still need to do some car travel.

Well, my work commute in a car is 45 minutes. It would be two hours on public transport. Plus, as a GP, I visit patients and I don't have a couple of extra hours in my day to walk possibly to the far ends of our registered area. I can't cycle as I have to drop and collect more than one children on the way there and back. It's not always as straightforward as you make out.

Clairetree
In order to get a disabled badge, you have to be able to walk less than 100 metres. Did you know that? Do you have any concept of what 100 metres is? I’ll give you a clue. It’s about 130 steps and most bus stops are further away than that from peoples homes and of course that doesn’t take the steps inside their house.

I have a disabled badge. I don’t use walking aids or a wheelchair. I’ve thought seriously about an electric wheelchair but it’s too much hassle, I’m too ill to use one. On a bad day I can only manage far fewer steps than that at one time. On a good day it’s more.

I can’t walk to the end of my very short street let alone to the bus stop and let’s not start about climbing the steps or sitting on the bus without head support!

You don’t know about people like me because we don’t go out much and are largely bedridden so we are invisible. If I didn’t have a car I wouldn’t even be able to get my dd to and from school.

I do wonder if one day you’ll grow up a bit. I regularly see posts from you and gasp. Now here’s a whole thread. So dfod with your ideas that disabled people can just y’know stop being so inconsiderate and creating traffic.

Because all I’m hearing right now is that I’d be better off not existing euthanised perhaps? because to actually be able to exist I have to do something so morally wrong almost every day.

I am trying to move and am looking for a place with good public transport but ideally a short walk (half a mile or so) to a Tube station and a small supermarket so that I don't need to drive to get the odd bit of shopping.

I'm trying to plan ahead, should I need to give up my car due to my age or money reasons. Many nice properties are miles from any public transport, these properties are mostly cheaper.

A similar sized property in a very convenient location is much dearer and gets snapped up more quickly. People want to be near facilities but not everyone can be.

you are contributing to killing people for your own personal comfort and convenience - are you seriously ok with that?

So does thing the bus...
Or heating your home..
Or using electric...
Or buying manufactured goods..
So on and so on

Having children (especially two of them) will result in more damage to the environment than driving a car will. How do you justify that decision OP? You're comfortable with people not having enough food and resources, with there not being enough space on the planet, because you selfishly chose to bring two people into the world (obviously I don't actually think any of this about having children but this is exactly what you sound like and the judgmental tone can easily be turned around on you.) In the words of Bob Marley, if you're going to start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean.