to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

Also better bus stops would help. I'm taking DD to work to meet my colleagues and I'm going to fork out for a taxi because the bus stop near work doesn't even have a bench and standing in the street (for potentially an hour if a bus doesn't come) with a baby really doesn't appeal.

Absolutely agree. If I lived in a city I'd join one of those clubs where you can rent a car when you need it.

And how will you solve the new trend for councils allocating siblings to diffrent schools and offering no solutions in terms of the starting at the same time

Well if your so worried about pollution stop using public transport and walk or cycle.

Also buses can often be very dangerous especially at nighg and the bus drivers do feck all

We managed for years without a car... because we lived in London. A year after moving out we both now have a car each that we need to get to and from work. There is a bus but the first one is at 8.45am and I start at 8.30.

I agree with you OP and it's pretty tragic that we can't get our shit together to agree on a solution.

Outside London, most public transport is not fit for purpose. Infrequent, unreliable, expensive, slow.

So people need cars, especially if they need to carry equipment, travel to places outside city centres, or make multipart journeys (drop off DCs at school, travel to work, do grocery shop on way home, before collecting DCs) - there aren't enough hours in the day to do all that on the bus/train.

Once you have bought a car, you have probably paid about 80% of the running costs, whether you use it or not (depreciation, insurance, road tax, maintenance, repairs, MOT etc). So you might as well use it as much as possible because putting fuel in a car that you already have is generally much cheaper than using the bus, especially if more than one person is travelling.

And anyway, if even a minority of car drivers decided that, for one day, they were going to do the 'right thing' and leave their cars at home and take the bus, there would be riots at the bus stop by 8 am, because there simply isn't the capacity if people did try to use public transport.

I once tried to get the bus to the city centre for a work meeting. Even at rush hour, the bus is only every half hour. After 40 minutes at the bus stop with no bus, I went home and got the car, drove past everyone still waiting at the bus stop and into the city centre, where luckily I could get parked nearish to where I needed to be. It was still cheaper than the bus and infinitely quicker.

If I wanted to use the train, I'd have to walk/bus 2 miles each way and then cram myself onto a train carrying more standing passengers than seated ones.

Just because some disabled people can use the bus, doesn't mean all disabled people can.

The biggest component of my disability is fatigue, followed by pain. If I had to push my wheelchair for 10 mins to get to the nearest bus stop, fight my way onto the bus (as my arms would be going weak by then), get bumped and thrown around along the journey and slammed backwards into the wall everyone the bus breaks, fight my way back off the bus, and somehow summon the energy to push my way another 10 mins to my destination at the other end, before I'd even got there I would be too tired or in pain to do what ever it was I was going there to do. Not to mention to tired to do it all again to get home, leaving me stranded out in the middle of nowhere.

Taking a car means I leave my wheelchair in the car, struggle to walk the 6 steps from my house to the car, drive there, park outside the door. The chair comes in and out of the car with one big tug, then I sit down and go about my day. When I start to feel tired I make my way back to the car and head home.

I never get to go out for long, just a quick 10 mins roll around a shop here and then but it's the only time during the week outside my various doctor's appointments that I actually get out of the house and it does wonders for my mental health. Losing the car would really impact my life in a bad way.

I live in a decent size city with bus routes and train lines serving the area however the 10 minute drive to MIL house takes 1.5 hours on a bus or 45 minutes on a train (the same as walking).

Whilst I'd love to be more environmentally conscious and walk/public transport the journey with the children I also have to factor in some sort of work/life balance. That extra 30+ minutes in the evening is when we have chill out time, we bathe the girls and have stories/snuggles before bed. Tiny little moments of bliss that get me through working a 10 hour day. Worth every second.

There's also the cost perspective. Using public transport would cost me at least £15 per day for the journey, it doesn't cost anywhere near that using the car, even when you factor in maintenance and insurance.

Make public transport more effective and cheaper and you'll win more people over. Until then folk like me will stick with a car because it makes working life a little more bearable knowing you can have extra time with the children...and no, sweating, grumpy children walking next to dual carriageways for 45 minutes is not nice time to spend with children before I get the "quality walking exercise time" comments.

Not proud to admit this but when I was a student there was this route which we all called 'The Crazy Bus'

My commute would involve minimum three buses, 15 miles is my direct distance....god only knows how much further on a bus route. I'm rural so they tend to do hugely convoluted routes.

I need to leave at 7am anyway in the car, and the buses aren't very regular here so maybe another 45 minutes earlier?

I'm walking distance to a station but that's no use when your destination is very on a different line, requiring a change of train, and then another bus.

I'd have to set off at 6am to hope to make it in by 8, replete with my shopping trolley full of marking I'd be dragging around.

It's just not workable.

I live rurally but work in a city. Which you would not know if you saw me in a traffic jam in the city.

My drive to work takes 45 mins - 1 hour. I need to be in work for about 8am (ideally), 9 at the very latest. I don’t usually know what time I will finish - some time between 6 and 9pm is normal, could be later if there is something big going on.

I looked in to doing my journey by public transport as actually I would have welcomed being able to do emails etc on my way in.

Option 1: walk or cycle 4 miles to nearest station (there is no bus going that way before 9am), get two trains. Possible (as long as the trains run ok) to get to work on time but takes over 3 hours and costs £20 a day (fuel is about a fiver, and the same again for parking)

Option 2: walk 1.4 miles to bus stop. 3 buses, and another mile to work at the end. Costs £15 a day, earliest time I could get to work would be 9.45, and would have to leave at 5.20 to be able to get home at all.

Unsurprisingly I choose to drive and don’t feel particularly bad about it.

I think you are assuming quite a bit. Are all the buses full? Buses don’t always run at convenient times ( I would struggle to get to work in less than 2.5 hours using buses, assuming they all connect and run on time). Similar with trains. I couldn’t collect the children from school using buses and I drive for work but could theoretically use a work van ( more polluting than my car). In major cities with good transport links it might be possible but I would still want a car for holidays etc. It would take nearer 3 hours to get to my sons hospital appointments...

So I should take over an hour to get to work rather than 20 minutes door to door in my nice comfortable car that I don't have to share with anyone else? I don't think so.

I hate public transport and, unless it's vastly improved, there's no way I would use it out of choice.

Also DD and I have a day out planned next week. We have decided to use public transport this time so that I can have a drink and driving would involve the unpredictable M25 and take one and a half hours on a good day.

I’ve priced up the tickets.... £19.70 return.....EACH! If all connections work perfectly (three trains, one tube) it should take one hour 45 minutes. That’s a LOT of money on top of the tickets for the day out....

You don't NEED to have children. I don't. Not for environmental reasons but children are more of a drain on resources than I am being childless while still driving one car between me and DH.

I'm assuming @Clairetree1 from your high and mighty attitude that you don't do anything that contributes to pollution then? You never get taxis, you have never used plastic straws, you always recycle everything accordingly, you don't buy produce in plastic packaging, don't fly in planes, don't get in the sea after you've put on sunscreen, don't use heating or aircon or go anywhere that does, never use baby wipes etc etc etc. Because all of these things contribute to pollution and contaminate the air. In fact even buses contribute to pollution, so why not just walk everywhere? In fact why even leave your house?

Having children is far and away the most damaging thing the average person can do environmentally.

Oh and I applied for a full time job for two years before I found one so no I can't "just find one that is closer to where I live"

Some of the comments on this thread really typify the classist mentality whereby public transport is for the lower classes
It’s not classist to not want to share a bus with drunk/violent/antisocial/dodgy/smelly people. Or to not want my child hearing filthy language and being threatened and told to F off if I ask them to stop.

Instead of PYO strawberries, just buy them from a supermarket where they've been flown in from Spain.. Not contributing to pollution much there then...

I could go on about the obvious merits of supporting local farmers, but that'd be a derail...

OP I get your basic point, but it cannot be assumed that public transport is good, everywhere in the country. I live on the outskirts of a largish town, and even then to get to my workplace 13 miles away would take me nearly 2 hours. I'd also then not be able to see my DS off to school, or even think about carrying the mountains of paperwork I need everyday.

I do think some of your posts are a little bit viewed from your high horse (which, if I could use as a mode of transport I would)....

gromance Who mentioned needing to have children? Not really relevant, is it?

To some extent I agree but not about buses. It costs £10 round trip to get to my workplace by bus and they stop at 5pm which is no use to me with a 5.30 finish. The nearest stop is also over a mile away so I'd have to finish at about 4.30.

However in a morning from my location the train to Bristol takes 40 minutes and driving takes 1hr20 due to traffic (thousands park by Temple Meads and then walk!). I just wouldn't drive for a 9-5.

why would you need to hire a car? We go camping every year by public transport

Very admirable but I'm sorry OP you just lost my vote.

I'm guessing you don't drive yourself?